Larry, with all due respect you epitomize the type of fan who is on here. You know, the unreasonable, glass half full guy. Do you really believe the special teams and OL injuries had more to do with our pathetic record than the terrible defense?

It is helpful that people like Matt and I are disenfranchised. Someone needs to slap some sense into most of you. True fans should not be afraid to voice their disagreement with the way the team is being run. None of you should be more of a TT fan than a Packers fan. He will be gone before too long, but the team will stay. Why shouldn’t he be criticized? Don’t worry, after another losing season next year most of you will probably be in our camp.

And the CBA will work itself out. The Pack is fine. Please, please quit using it as an excuse to justify TT thriftiness.

It is high time to start the TT head on a pike parade. Tried to resign Cole and sign Canty could do neither. You get a new defense and first rate defensive coaching staff but cant do anything to really help them. We are the youngest team in football and it is doing no good at the moment. A second rate organization like the Vikes were able to get the deal done in the Jared Allen sweepstakes. I just can’t see where the improvement will come. The O-Line is average at best, as of right now we only have 2 players on the DLine Jolly may go to Jail and I wont mention the draft choice from 2 years ago.

Larry…Larry…Larry…

as far as the CBA is concerned. they are still 12 months away from eliminating the salary cap. there are poison pills in there to make both the owners and the players to want to negotiate a new contract. players would lose 2 years before being able to become an UFA (meaning the average player would only get one big contract in their career as opposed to the 2 large pay days they average today); owners lose the salary cap (costing them more money) and teams would have to lose a UFA, before they could sign a UFA and the last 8 playoff teams wouldn’t be able to sign a UFA until everyone else has (yuck no teams want those clauses), so I think there is a pretty good chance they work this thing out, and you are the one who is actually naive in this matter.

…but let’s just play this out, as it relates to the packers… as of today, clifton, kampman, chillar, college, spitz, jennings, collins and blackmon will all be UFA’s next year. However, if there is no CBA only clifton, kampman and chillar would be UFA’s, the other four would be RFA’s, which will save us MILLIONS of dollars in contract money next year. So actually, the larger risk is if there is a salary cap in 2010. Hands down we will lose some players…but one has to ask, aside from clifton, kampman, collins and jennings is there anyone on that list that we can’t replace… And even then, clifton is already past his prime (and probably won’t be resigned, irregardless), kampman will be 31. keep in mind KGB is only 32 today and already out of the league, so one would also have to ask how much they will commit to kampman, in particular if he can’t make the transition to the 3-4. Which is a huge risk we have (mitigating the effectiveness of one of our top defensive players) in switching to the new scheme…

So really, you have 2 priorities – Jennings and Collins. If there is a cap, we have 35 million to work with to sign both players to front loaded contracts….say 3 million plus PRSB of 2 million for collins this year = 5 million cap hit. Jennings, say 7 million plus a PRSB of 3 million = 10 million for a cumulative cap hit of 15 million this year. they already count over 1.5 on the cap, so that is a net cost of 13.5 million. That still leaves them with over 21 million dollars to work with…you can’t honestly tell me that they can’t afford to sign one guy that costs them 5-7 million, that would have an immediate impact on this team. Still leaving the team with 15 million to sign all rookies and other role players (atari bigby, etc.). The math simply isn’t on your side here, Larry.

And again, if there is no salary cap, both collins and jennings are RFA’s next year, highest tenders can be made (with draft picks as comp.), any offer can be matched and franchise tags can still be used…so for 2010, the Packers would actually be in a better position to retain their players if there is no cap.

I think I have clearly shown that there is plenty of money to sign one or two decent to marquee free agents, without breaking the bank or risking the packers future, irregardless of what happens with the cap.

And too be honest, if the cap goes away, long-term the packers are going to have a really hard time keeping up with the Jones’s (pun intended), Snyder’s and Rooney’s of the world. We’ll be a small market team with a difficult time handing out large paychecks year after year. So with that being said, it put’s even more of an onus to go and get some players and sign them to deals now, so that we have them locked up before there is no salary cap. So, either way, in my mind, TT is sitting on his hands and screwing up this franchise.

…take a look at the Giants, Broncos and Texans…teams that typically aren’t big spenders in FA are locking up players left and right…some pundits are actually saying the wiser strategy with this impending no cap era is to lock as many players up as possible before the cap expires, as opposed to not paying them, because their will be a net savings by leveraging the cap today. This is the startegy that these teams and others are employing, Pats, Dallas, Arizona, etc….

And as far as the build through the draft philosophy, look at the Steelers, Hartwig their center, Farrior and Leftwhich are all FA acquisitions, look the Patriots, they have a healthy diet of draft and FA, the Colts, same philosophy…Giants: Fred Robbins and Antonio Pierce were FA acquisitions, plus they just brought in 3 players this year…

We have no balance. We haven’t brought in a decent FA for the last 3 years. The recipe for success in the NFL is to build your team through the draft and add missing pieces via free agency. We’ve built our team, but we just have too many missing pieces that we haven’t filled via free agency to be successful in the NFL. The proof is in the pudding and the last 3 SB champs have employed this philosophy and not just a draft only mentality.

As far as not understanding my fanhood, I hope it just became clearer. I just want the best for the Packers and right now we don’t have a defensive line and that pisses me off. I’m not a mindless minion who blindly follows out of loyalty, rather due to my loyalty, I cry foul when I think management is making mistakes. Which is all I am doing here.

Canty had stated he prefered to go to a 4/3 and he is doing just that, but probably as a tackle. Now thats ,a move strictly for the dough. How happy is he going to be, any guesses? Further, do you guys want to make offers to people you haven’t met and won’t come in for a physical?

I don’t see how we can’t draft Raji now, if he’s available at that slot. I don’t know if we can count on him being there. We are so weak DL, I just hope at least two of our first three picks are DE/DT. We could use another corner, too. I wouldn’t begrudge TT for taking Curry, though… I think Canty and Cole were overpaid. Especially Cole. No way is he worth that kind of money. I heard a rumor that the Packers might be interested in trading for Peppers. Has anyone else heard this, and know if it’s true? It was also stated that the Packers have a few free agents lined up for visits later this week.

I just read on Profootballamerica’s site that the Packers have now turned their attention to Olshansky. Here’s the link: http://profootballamerica.com/

A lot of these posts are the same stuff we have been rehashing for the last year. The only new subject that has come up is Collin Cole.

All I gotta say is a big WHATEVER to Collin Cole’s departure.

All you guys bitching about Cole’s departure would be doing the same amount of bitching if we paid the guy being he is just a really average player.

Oh, if you’re going to say we developed Brown, he cost the Vikings a #3 and learned what changes he had to make on their nickel.

To all who are complaining. What do you think we should do going forward? Any new ideas on how the Pack should proceed?

Cole was nothing special. No one is arguing that, however, he was a servicable back up. We now have 5 D Linemen. And one of them is Malone. This is not acceptable.

Thompson and Montgomery are more likely LB’s in the 3-4.

What offensive linemen are you comfortable with? Clifton? Maybe. Spitz? Starting to reach. And that is it. Hopefully someone like Sitton or the Brasilian will step up, but if you are counting on that you are sadly delusional.

What should we do Jeff? Unfortunately, that is not an easy answer. Hopefully they will still look at a lower tier FA or 2 but at this point how much help will they be? Plus it is TT so…the draft is unlikely to provide much help so we are stuck. What should we do? Fire TT. What will we do? Nothing. So get yourself comfortable and prepared for another highly disappointing season and laugh at how badly we get manhandled on both lines.

This artcile made me lose all respect that I had left for TT:
http://www.sun-sentinel.com/sports/sfl-favre09,0,1655742,print.story

I know I’m stirring the pot here by bringing up #4, but the Pack screwed him on his way out the door. He was given the final say by TT on choosing either the Jets or the Bucs, Favre chose the Bucs and was planning on heading to Tampa, after talking playbook with Gruden. But TT pulled the trigger on trading him to the Jets anyways, and then didn’t even bother to tell he he’d been traded. Favre found out on ESPN, just like me and you…and that is how we treat one of the greatest players in our franchise history, with no respect whatsoever.

Switching the trade to the Jets I get (although TT went back on his verbal agreement to Favre to let him choose – sounds familiar doesn’t it – like Rivera, Wahl, Moss, etc.), but to not even have the decency to call and let Favre know is ridiculous.

No class. There is a right and wrong of doing things and this is just piss poor management by TT during the biggest personnel move of his career…you know what they say, old habits die hard. I think this is pretty telling about how this guy does business.

#4 is last seasons news. People are going to claim new info, or this happened, or that happened, he said, she said, but it’s all last years news that people want to bring to the surface again.

Glad to see some of the other new points coming up tho. Like the guy from San Diego. I also think we should bring him in.

The Packers have far too many players comming of surgeries not to be a major player in the Free Agent Market. Who is going to play LT,RT ILB or Defensive End? TT is now talking up TE Finley. Let alls remember Finley made plays against the worst non expansion team in the history of football,

I feel like most of you only look at the total $ amount instead of looking at the market. The fact is that you may not think Cole is worth $5mm guaranteed but Seattle did and I bet GB’s and TB’s offers were pretty close to that amount. In other words he is worth that amount.

As far as Canty, the rumor isn’t that GB wouldn’t pay more than NY, but TT wouldn’t give his agent a ballpark number before a face to face and a physical. Well a contract is always contingent on a physical and while a face to face would be nice, surely they could have talked to 10, 20, 30, whatever of his former teammates, coaches, etc. At some point you have to pay people.

Want to talk about wasted money? How about 6 years 37.5mm for AJ Hawk? Now that is a waste.

JeffN-

I agree with eveything you said…Igor is just better than average, but that is better than what we have today. Would love to see Raji at #9, but wouldn’t be too surprised if Crabtree fell to us, now that he isn’t gonna run before he has surgery. If Crabtree is still somehow on the board. I think we’d either take him and pinch ourselves or trade down for a boatload of pics to someone desperate for a WR. Bucs at #19 or Eagles at #21 could be potential suitors…more than likely a trade down knowing TT, which I’d actually be okay with. So hopefully they can add 2 or 3 quality prospects to our O-Line and/or front 7 in mid-to-late round one and round 2. Not sold that #9 is a great spot to be with this years draft…aside from Raji, not sure that Everette Brown or Michael Oher are that much better than Tyson Jackson or Clay Matthews that could be had in mid-to-late round 1…consensus is that Jenkins is too slow to play corner, so he’s now no longer worth the #9 selection, either…

I don’t think Crabtree will last unless Seattle is nuts, which they could be. They are one of those teams that could take a flyer on Michael Vick if Hasselbeck is still iffy. Mora has a history with him, so maybe that’s something to look at. I don’t know who is gonna eat his salary. Sounds like Atlanta will have to eat some to trade him. Detroit would be a nice place for Vick too. If the Lions want to ever challenge again, they are going to have to take some calculated risks. Drafting another qb or wr high would be crazy. Maybe they take Curry number one and improve their defense. I see Sporting News think the Vikes and 49ers might also be interested in Vick. He’d be good for the NFC-north. The Lions could end up with Vick, Curry and Cushing. Now, that might turn some heads.

Are you throwing out just one name like jason taylor and saying that free agency is always a bad decision? Wow dude, do you ever stop and think how retarded that sounds?

For our new defense I would rather have Vinny also.

Truth – this is not meant to be a skewer – just a counterexample.

Was Ahman Green worth what Houston paid to get him? Should we have matched the offer to keep him? Sometimes teams just overpay because they’re desperate and make poor decisions. John Hadl? Herschel Walker? Joe Johnson? Brett Favre? (In my opinion – Albert Haynesworth – but we’ll see how it goes.)

On the other hand, Moss was clearly an outstanding acquisition for the Pats. Chad Pennington was a godsend last year. Michael Turner? Woodson has done a great job for us. I think Pickett was a good find. Chillar proved to be occasionally solid for us. FA can work – there’s no doubt.

It all comes down to results. Does the team win? Regardless of how Ted goes about it, the Packers need to win the division or make a strong push into wildcard territory for me to keep backing him and Coach Mike. This is year five, guys, and you’ve had the only real QB in the division all the way. It’s time to put up or shut up.

Sadly, to me, he seems to be floundering rather than building.

Larry-

Jason Taylor…scheme and Aaron Rodgers, that’s why not now, but yes a year ago.

Let’s break this down…last year at this time, we were talking a D-Line of Kampman, Williams/Jolly/Cole, Pickett and Jenkins/KGB. My point then was that KGB didn’t have much left in the tank and was coming off an injury…I thought we lacked an edge rusher to couple w/Kampman, which a combination of Jason Taylor, KGB and Jenkins or just Jenkins and Taylor would have been a great udgrade. As it turned out our D-Line was very weak last year, due to the trade of Williams, injury of Jenkins and release (end of the road) of KGB. Last year in a 4-3 with that group of players, it would have made alot of sense.

But this year, is an entirely different animal due to the switch to the 34. Now we are talking about Taylor being an OLB/DE. For linebackers, we already have Hawk, Barnett, Bishop, Poppinga, Chillar and Kampman. they are probably going to go: Hawk, Barnett, Kampman and Poppinga to start with Bishop, Chillar and a rookie competing for playing time. They made this transition to the 34, in part due to the strength of our LB core. Adding in Taylor, when you are transitioning to a new system doesn’t make sense. he is also a year older, which I thought the guy had 2 years left last year…so really this year is his last year. Scheme adjustment is probably a 2 year-deal…meaning that Taylor will be retired before we’ve fully made the transition to a 34.

When we were clamoring for Taylor was also before the BF deal…and we were coming off a 13-3 season and thinking we were hoping going to make a final push to get to the Superbowl this year, but obviously that didn’t happen and the team is in the shitter.

there’s your answer for why we were clamoring then vs. now…it ain’t rocket science…

Jeff, I was fine with them letting Ahman go. He was pushing 30 and had been banged up. You seem reasonable and the point is not that we should sign all our own free agents or that we need to sign big name free agents every year. But we NEED to utilize it as a tool to help our team. Especially now, when in my opinion, our talent level is pretty low and we are implementing a new scheme. For every bust you name I can name free agents who started and contributed to playoff teams (as you started to up above). No, there is not many MVP’s or Defensive Players of the Year on the list, but good, solid contributors. Like Canty very possibly would have been.

Matt, it is pretty funny that you lay out a well thought out, reasonable explanation and all Larry can say is “wow”. It made sense to me. Great counterpoint Larry!

C’mon guys, lets not over-think this. I still think, given ’07, that we have a nucleous of a pretty good team, especially in our Division. Everything that can go wrong with a team hit us last year; among them, injuries, coaching lapses, change at QB, lousy mindless ST play, and no real help from the ’08 draft or FA. Any change in those basics might have raised the 6 wins to 9 but probably not more. In any case a couple of tweaks here and there and we’re off again. FA will provide some experienced leadership in the 3/4 along with, what I feel is a greatly improved coaching staff. Its possible to get a “starter” at #9, although I couldn’t guess who or where. Cheer up, lose the negativity, you’ll feel much better with the glass at least half full – and by all means keep the bulk of that cap residue for the monster opportunity not seen yet.

Fellas, nothing we say here is worth a hill o’beans! Nor, do any of us have the official input to know what, or what not, is, or has, gone on in the executive suite. Carp, opine, suggest, toot your own horn, and portray yourselves as experts if you will, but you’re on a fools errand if you think anybody is going to take you (or me) seriously. You guys haven’t even felt a knee in the locker room, but you can evaluate a players worth. You have no idea what a FA out there is thinking regarding where he would really want to play, yet you jump all over TT for not trying to bring your guy in, not having the slightest idea of what TT did or did not do regarding a given player. I think its fun to post, but this is not our life men (and the occasional woman); enjoy it!

A 7-8 year plan in the NFL is a ridiculous concept and not true. This is the NFL…make some changes and it can be a 1 year plan (see Falcons/Dolphins/etc). But because it is TT we need to be patient? Bulls**t.

Larry, I can tell you exactly what most free agents are thinking. PAY ME. And TT refuses to do it. And I do have the slightest idea of what TT did not do regarding a player…offer them enough money to sign on the dotted line.

You can be happy with another losing season. Personally, I want to win.

Larry, just because we write with passion doesn’t mean I am losing any sleep over it. Thanks for pointing out the obvious though……
JeffN, a 7 year contract isn’t a 7 year plan. It should mean that after 7 years they have displayed the ability to be consistently competitive for a championship, while having a solid future. Also, I don’t think that Indy, S.D., Tampa, Philly, etc. have sold thei souls to the salary cap devil and have remained competitive year in and year out. I do know that they have paid for the right people, as well as drafted the right people, and TT has not shown that capability, nor willingness. He has shown that when he gets a steal, money wise, like Pickett or Woodson, he will take a chance because he won’t be skewered in the media if he is wrong. He hasn’t shown the willingness to really pay for anyone. It seems like he believes he can always furnish for less. I wouldn’t doubt his way of doing things if it didn’t appear as though we were heading backwards by this style. I frankly don’t care in which way someone gets this team to be consistently successful, I just want them to stop talking about the bright future and do it.

Don’t give me the “we don’t overbid for players” and the team might vanish soon crap. What about Joe Johnson?, Antonio Freeman, Levens, Walker, Al Harris, Ahman Green..once…Hunt, Favre and on and on. Those are all guys they payed top dollar for, or to keep. Some worked out, others didn’t, but the pre and post Lombardi era had nothing to do with it. Is there a smaller limit than a team like Dallas has? Well duh! But most of us haven’t been clamoring for TT to make a billion high priced signings just to make them. We have clamored for the guy to make the smart move, which is sometimes to pass on big ticket guys, but not as a rule. Just because someone is expensive does not mean he isn’t worth it. Sometimes that is the smart move, and don’t go blabbing about only one Reggie White because there are plenty of examples since then that have put teams over the top, or got them heading to the top. Remember, not every high priced free agent ends up in either Dallas, Oakland, Washington or Minnesota. Also remember that just because you F up on a FA move it also doesn’t spell the demise of the franchise