Tainted Legacy: The Death of a Hero

Al has vowed not to use the “F” word anymore, so I’ll do it.  Everyone else has already said their piece on the issue already if they have an opinion, and this article probably will not offer anything more that what’s already been said by others on the topic.  That said, I do think yet another Favre opinion article won’t hurt anybody.

Along with the rest of the world, I bought into the hero worship of the the legendary Brett Favre.  He was marketed as the ultimate competitor, the simple guy who just loves football and doesn’t let any of the hype go to his head.

Well, the truth has come out and true character revealed.  The same guy who criticized Javon Walker for not honoring his contract has now pulled a Terrel Owens to get himself in position to play for the team of his choosing.  Favre appears to think that because of who he is, the rules do not apply and should be able to retire and unretire to play for whomever he wishes.

Sorry to tell you Brett, but not everyone thinks that way.  GM Ted Thompson made what I think is the right decision not to allow him to unretire and play for the Packers last season.  At that point I did still respect Favre a great deal, but the constant “will he or won’t he play” game year after year was getting really old.  I am sure Thompson was as sick of it as most people (if not more so) and finally said enough is enough.  Good for Ted, one big question answered and let’s move on.

Now Favre has manipulated his way out of his contract with the New York Jets by faking a second retirement and is free to play for whomever he wishes, just the way he wanted it.  It is clear now that Favre wants to be a Viking.  As a Packer fan this is the biggest slap in the face one could ever have expected from the man.  The Minnesota Vikings — the Packers’ biggest rival (and Favre’s for the past 17 years).  It hurts, and yes it does feel like a betrayal.

I remember after the 1997 super bowl loss when Holmgren left the Packers and went to Seattle to play GM and head coach, just like he wanted in Green Bay.  I remember how disappointing that was and how many people were so angry about his “betrayal”.  I didn’t personally feel that way but now I can certainly better understand how those people were feeling.

Remember just a few years ago when all was right with the world in Packerland?  We all wanted Favre to be a Packer until he retired, and then we’d build a shrine of his jersey and all hail him as the greatest football player to have ever played the game.  That dream is now long since over.

The truth is that regardless of Favre ever becomes a Viking or if he decides to hang it up for real this time, the damage has already been done.  Favre’s selfishness and huge ego has been revealed and there is no going back now.  My hero has died.  I have gone through 4 of the 5 stages of grief (minus acceptance).  The only difference between this situation and an actual death is that instead of my being able to grieve the loss and move on, Favre keeps coming back to haunt us.  It is so hard to move on from this though when it just won’t go away.

I am just completely exhausted with the whole ordeal.  My hope for the future at this point is for Favre to retire, and if that doesn’t happen I’d like to see two dominant performances by the Packers versus the Vikings this season, and maybe see Favre take a few shots from B.J. Raji as well (even if that is a bit juvenile).

I suppose this whole debacle has helped me learn a lesson.  There are no true role models in professional sports, and when you think you’ve found one they will disappoint you.  Professional athletes are just people like everyone else, and make mistakes just like everyone else.

Kevin “Not Al” Roth

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  • Steve

    Good grief… get over it…

  • JeffN

    Kevin Roth says, “I have gone through 4 of the 5 stages of grief (minus acceptance).”

    I say, Funny Stuff!! Seriously man that is hilarious!!!

    Kevin Roth says, “maybe see Favre take a few shots from B.J. Raji”

    I say, if he is playing against us I would love to see Favre get sacked by B.J., although he is more likely to get sacked by one of our linebackers Raji does have some pass rushing abilities.

  • Jack in Columbus

    Everyone is entitled to his opinion — and feelings — about an issue so important to Packers fans as Favre’s likely return to professional football as a Minnesota Viking. For me, I choose not to feel betrayed. I prefer to feel enlightened.

    Gone are the days when I naively thought that Favre was highly intelligent, selfless and dedicated to the Packers. He has proven himself to be another prima donna looking out only for No. 1. He has shown that, even as a mature adult, he is incapable of making important career-oriented decisions (that affect many others) and accepting the consequences of those decisions. He apparently yearns to play against the Packers.

    I hope Favre’s shoulder injury does not stand in his way of leading the Vikings’ offense this year. One wonders if he will shower and change in the same lockerroom, or in the presidential suite of a nearby Marriott. I am certain the players and coaches will wrap their arms around this proven leader.

    Unlike many Packers fans, I am looking forward to playing the Vikings QB’d by Favre this season. It’s time for Aaron Rodgers to step up his game, and show that he earned the job, not merely inherited it. Might be fun to see Favre sacked, or even carried off the field. No, I am definitely not hot over Favre’s imminent return in purple gard. Revenge is a dish best served cold. And I am icy cold about the nect chapter in No. 4’s story.

  • http://Orlando Mark

    I know peoples feelings are hurt but I don’t quite get it. I think Rodgers is a better QB than #4 right now, certainly in the future. If #4 thinks he has a shot at a SB and for some reason the Vikings want him that would be hard for any player to pass up. I personally think it’s ridiculous. I say if he wants to play football that bad and is willing to risk almost certain failure(there are 29 other teams and the luck has to fall your way, I’m thinking of the “tuck” rule, 4th and 28 etc,etc) at least we all get to see how it turns out. In the NFL you can’t hide a weakness, this is probably going to end up like Unitas or Namath. A lot of fanfare and benched or injured by mid season.

  • Nifer04

    Let us all await the game between the Packers and the Vikings and when Favre is introduced, lets NOT BOO him…….Let us do what our parents taught us……. ‘If you can’t say anything nice, don’t say anything at all’. What I mean by that is, don’t say anything, NOTHING, let the silence ring in his ears…..or a friend of mine said…. all of us keep silent and the big man in the booth play crickets in the background. What do you think??

  • Monkeon

    You know its amazing how many Brett Favre haters there are.

    Brett played for 16 years through pain and family loss. He gave everything he had.

    People tend to blame Brett for the NFC Championship game loss but that one was squarely on the defense…where is the hate for Al Harris?

    He was devastated by that loss, as we were all..and he thought he had no more to give so he retired.

    Many players retire and unretire. Where was the hate on Reggie White?

    I think something happened between Brett and the Packers(TT and MMx2) that we will probably never know about. What we do know is that “the train left the station” and the Packers went 6-10.

    After Brett was reinstated TT and MMx2 DID NOT want Brett back…they wouldn’t let him on the field, they would let him in the locker room, and they wouldn’t let him in the stadium. Wouldn’t that piss you off?

    Remember TT traded away Brett…anything after that you haters shouldn’t worry about.

  • Mel e Mel

    AMEN Mr. Roth. BF “I could teach this offense” What a Joke. 2007 Game vs the Eagles. 0 offensive touchdowns Midseason vs the Washington Redskins Charles Woodson and the Defense bailout the Pack after 2 interceptions by the late great Sean Taylor. Midseason VS. Dallas An absolutely pitiful performance. And 2 horrid Performances vs the Bears yet “I could teach this offense” That is an insult to every member of the offense. I admit Brett could teach the fine art of throwing an ill advised interception.
    I love how suddenly real Packer fans are haters. These are the same people who didnt watch Anthony Dilweg, David Whitehurst, Randy Wright etc. I am going to enjoy seeing Brett on third and long because the Vikes have 1 receiver thats it Tramon Williams could cover him with his eyes closed. He is going to line up vs a Defense he has not seen. Remember last time he was carried off it was vs a pressure D 3-4 where he didnt recognize the blitz (he could teach this offense though). A little DB hurt him.
    I dont want to see BJ Raji Hit him BJ cannot generate enough momentum as can just wrap him up and tackle not poetic either. I would like to see a nice blitz from Atari Bigby from the blindside. Bigby will knock Brett to where he belongs at home in Mississippi for good.

  • Larry

    I have to agree that Brett is a huge disappointment. I have enjoyed watching a talented quarterback play with intensity and skill for quite a few years. Now it is clear that the human being behind the number 4 not only has problems with alcohol and drugs in his life, he also has problems with making life decisions. This evidently has developed into issues with following through on contracts he has signed and he has no problem with manipulating anyone and everyone to keep the public attention on himself. Looks to me as though he is suffering from the same ego issues that so many sports figures get caught up in (and that he so vocally criticized in the past). I hope that at some point he can scrape himself together enough to retire with a scrap or two of dignity left. Right now, it doesn’t look like there is much hope of that happening.

    I have considered buying a Rogers jersey but I think for now I might have to go looking for a Bart Starr jersey. Clearly someone you can look back on as an outstanding player and an even better human being.

  • tgroot

    I agree with your article 100%. Granted Favre has the right to go play for anyone he wants but theres so much more to it. He would of gone down as one of the most if not the most loved Packer of all time and hes giving that up for a one+ year stint with the Vikings. There would of been a lifetime of benefit for Favre but even if he stays retired this has been tarnished for myself also. At this point I think Favre thinks he will walk into Lambeau in purple to a cheering crowd with a few scattered boos– I hope the fans really show him how we feel and boo him right out of the stadium. Thompson made the right choice last year with all the cirumstances that surrounded that decision–I hope Rodgers proves him right with the team having a big year.

  • Larry

    Just to set the record straight that last “Larry” post was not from Aggieland!!!

  • donavon

    wish i could be like some and say i don’t care what he does, but i can’t. i guess i just wanted to live in football fantasy world where one great player leaves as a hero. this whole debacle of the last 2 years, no matter whose fault, has put everything down the toilet. i don’t care how much time passes by or what happens from here out, it will never be the same when it comes to even hearing brett’s name.

  • STMills

    TT and MM – and all the haters here – didn’t want Favre back.

    Now that he’s gone all you girls do is cry.

    You got what you wanted (6-10), so now stop crying over your spilled milk.

    If Favre wants to play and a team wants him to play, he should play for that team.

    It’s what he is – a football player.

    It’s laughable to see you dweebs, who have never put on a pair of pads, pontificate that a football player shouldn’t play football.

    Did you tell Lombardi he shouldn’t coach the Redskins when the Packers wouldn’t give him what he wanted?

    Did you tell Hornung and Ringo they shouldn’t play for other teams?

    I hope Favre plays for the Vikings and plays well.

    You girls – and TT and MM – are a disgrace to football.

  • Pack4life

    I played college football and Favre should stay retired. I love how people can call names over the internet. Comparing 1960s with today shows a great lack of intelligence. Brett and those that use Lombardi to Redskins analogy should examine that a little closer, it didnt have a happy ending. NO Free agency back then; not a valid comparison. There are 2 groups of Packer Fans 1 group is the #4 Cheerleaders. The other is true Packer fan who was happy that #4 was on our team but also followed the other players on the roster.

  • Punk

    Talk about dweebs; Hornung and Ringo didn’t go to other teams to be able to say that they had beaten every team in the league. Lombardi got a chunk of ownership, and while we’re at it Holmgren got his GM title.
    STMills proves that a fact here and there leads to opinion that soon (it is hoped) becomes fact. In all these months I cant recall anyone who supports the TT/MM football decision say they hated Favre. Rather, he is just a big dissappointment. Not because he is trying to play, because that is his right, but because of all the speculation generated on why he wants to play for MIN. I for one dont think it is because he wants to pay Uncle Sam another 5+ mil.

  • Reid

    Let’s see, Vikings at Packers early in the season on MNF. hmmm. I still think it’s all a ploy by the entire NFL to drive up revenues. All of them, TT, MM, Favre, Vikings, JETS,Goodell, etc. are in on this and we’re all taking the bait. With Favre on the Vikings, the viewers will be more than 10x without. No one outside of an NFC North City or NFC North team fan would watch this game if he didn’t play. I wonder what a 30 second commercial will cost that night?

  • Pete H

    still? really? he doesn’t, hasn’t, nor will, owe the Packers…or Packer fans ANYTHING other than the 16 seasons that he played the best he could. If players owe fans anything or vice versa than shouldn’t we all pay a huge debt of gratitude to the handfull of usefull players who had to play for this team in the 70’s to 1992. John Anderson, Lynn Dickey, Lofton, McCarren etc…..they had to stay in the rothole that was GB at the time…..please let it go

  • JeffN

    Some of you guys sound pretty tore up over this whole thing. It’s only football. I mean I’m passionate about my sports to but it’s all about how much you let it effect you.

    I would of liked to have seen billboards of Favre all over Green Bay after his retirement to, but it isn’t going to happen we just have to accept that. Not that it isn’t entertaining reading some of this stuff, but I’d rather see everyone get over it.

    I’m happy with the direction of the Packers at this point. Let’s move on with that.

  • JeffN

    Pete H, I don’t think people think Favre owes us anything. People just can’t stand the thought of Favre playing in Minnesota. It is extremly weird this whole thing with Brett wanting to play for the Vikes the arch rival from his 16 seasons here in Green Bay.

  • Pete H

    I don’t think that most people here think he owes anything, but I do see “betrayal” here way too much….yes it will be crazy wierd, but it will be a world of fun too. Cmon, as football fans what could possibly bring more excitement to any regular season Packer game than Brett playing as a Viking? Brett was and is my Packer hero and as I said earlier I will give a standing O when he is introduced, but will root like hell for him to become a Kampman/Jenkins sandwich as soon as kickoff happens. I will also not be able to root for him this year at all because he will be a Viking and its always Pack first. Its that simple.

  • STMills

    Why is it “weird” for Favre to play for the Vikings?

    When TT and MM and all the haters told Favre they didn’t want him anymore, he had just come off a career season in which he took his team to overtime in the NFC Championship game.

    It was inevitable that Favre would play for another NFL team.

    Anyone who couldn’t see that is a moron and shouldn’t pose as a football fan, much less a football general manager or coach.

    What would have been “weird” is if Favre had taken TT’s and MM’s bullshit and walked away; going to play for other NFL teams, however, especially considering the lack of talent at quarterback in the NFL, is not “weird.”

    Remember: Lombardi LEFT THE PACKERS to coach the Redskins because the Redskins gave him what the Packers would not give him, ownership; conversely, the Packers TRADED FAVRE because they did not want him any more.

    You haters made your bed; now sleep in it.

  • http://www.packernet.com admin

    Let’s be accurate here. Lombardi left because he was done in Green Bay and the Packers are publicly owned, so no, he could not get ownership here. He never asked. The Packers traded Favre because he retired. If Favre wanted to stay with the Packers he shouldn’t have retired. He wanted out and thought he could force his release, the Packers didn’t back down like the Jets did. Of course, the Jets didn’t want anything to do with the man and mess he brings to a team. One season was enough for them to know that. I want Favre in Minnesota, it pretty much guarantees two wins for the Packers. Other than the Ryan Grant year, Fave has been just slightly above pitiful the last few years, especially in the second half of the season. Our QB had 6 more TDs, 9 less picks and 600 more passing yards. There is no question who is the better QB at this stage of their careers.

  • packer_bob

    Whaaaaaah!!! Brett won’t do what we want him to do! Whaaaaah!!

    Al breaks his “moratorium” by having a mouthpiece do his dirty work for him, no wonder you like TT so much.

    I’ve said all I have to say on this matter (if you don’t believe me scroll through previous threads) but the wailing and nashing of teeth by those that didn’t want to take Favre back but now don’t want him to play for anyone else need to grab their pacifiers and their blankies and take a nap. It’s getting ridiculous.

  • packer_bob

    Al,

    If Favre lands in Minnesota, I’d like to wager you on those two “guaranteed” wins. You act like we’re the king of the heap instead of a team coming off a 6-10 year. Pretty bold talk, imo. We don’t have any guaranteed wins or did you miss last year?

  • JeffN

    STMills, you say it’s not weird for Favre to play for the Vikes. Have you been paying attention to anything that has been going on the last 17 years?

    And seriously I don’t think most Packer fans hate Favre. I think most Packer fans are just disappointed to see him play for the arch rival. If you can’t understand that then we can’t take you seriously.

    Don’t make this an issue of hate. That’s not what it is.

  • packer_bob

    JeffN,

    Did you read the title of the article above by Al’s stand in? “Tainted Legacy: Death of a Hero” is much different than “Favre to Vikes: I’m a Little Disappointed.”

    I don’t have my finger on the pulse of the entire Packer nation, but on this board and in the national media there has been plenty of hate. Words like “prima donna” and “traitor” are pretty strong and mean more than “disappointing.” Maybe you don’t hate Favre but it seems to me that many on this board are to the point that they do and are ready to disclaim his stay in Green Bay.

    As to Favre playing in purple, if it happens no one that’s been paying attention the last year should be too surprised. I don’t see how it’s that different from Sharper or Longwell playing for them, just a bigger name. People don’t seem to get that this is a sport and a business, not a national security interest.

    Unless someone can tell me different, I doubt Favre ever took a blood oath on a stack of bibles that he would never play for anyone but the Packers. If he did, then you can accuse him of betrayal.

  • JeffN

    Ok fine, I guess this is an issue of whether or not you want to hate or call others haters. I’m not taking part in the hatred thing. If you people want to fight go ahead.

    Everyone I’ve talked to around Appleton and Green Bay area are dissapointed but not pissed off or depressed. Most have moved on. It seems like the over emotional people flock to these boards. If you are a hater you are in the minority over all. Get over it. It’s football and we are adults not kids fighting on the play ground.

  • STMills

    admin says: “Let’s be accurate here… The Packers traded Favre because he retired.”

    That’s not accurate.

    FIRST Favre retired.

    THEN Favre decided to return and play for the Packers (At this point Favre was no longer “retired”, and in fact he never was technically “retired” as he had never submitted his retirement papers to the NFL).

    THEN the Packers told Favre they didn’t want him, that he could not play for the Packers and that he could not even compete for the starting job.

    THEN the Packers traded Favre.

    So the Packers didn’t trade Favre “because he retired.”

    The traded him because they didn’t want him on the team!

    There’s no disputing that.

    If you are suggesting that TT wanted Favre back, but Favre wanted a trade, so TT was a nice boy and gave Favre his trade, you’re heavy into the koolaid, man.

    Let’s all sing together now –

    “Jim Ringo to the Eagles,

    Jim Taylor to the Saints.

    Paul Hornung to the Saints, too,

    And Vince to Washington.

    Sure they were NFL teams,

    But we love them anyway.

    Yet as for Favre,

    The rules have changed.

    So we just hate him,

    Man do we hate!”

  • packer_bob

    Agreed, Jeffn–I don’t understand the vitriol and am ready to move on. One thing is for sure: if Favre suits up in purple everybody in two states and a good chunk of the football lovers nationwide will be watching with baited breath!

    Stmills: Thank you for taking the time to bring the reality of what actually happened back into the conversation. I considered doing it myself but it’s like talking to a pile of bricks and just didn’t want to put in the effort. Kudos to you!

    As for your song, what it lacks in rhythm and rhyme it makes up for by demonstrating an excellent point. Whether certain people accept that point remains to be seen.

  • packer_bob

    Stmills,

    Upon re-reading your otherwise excellent post, I believe Favre had signed something to the effect that he retired before he decided to try to come back to the Packers. I’m not an expert on NFL paperwork and procedures but I seem to remember last summer Favre had signed something to procedurally “un-retire” and Goodell sat on it for a few days to give the Packers and Favre a little extra time to work something out. They didn’t and Favre flew up to Green Bay after that.

    This in no way blunts the main thrust of your argument, which is that Favre wanted to come back to Green Bay and they didn’t want him. I just wanted to point it out before one of the many picker of nits around here used it as a straw man to try to discount your post entirely.

  • donavon

    lombardi never asked to own part of the packers, or to coach the packers again. he asked to be allowed to go elsewhere out of respect for coach bengston, who he had recommened for the job after being his defensive coordinator. he went through the proper channels with class and respect for others. and was shown class and respect for what he did for the packers by others. it’s in every serious book about lombardi.

  • packer_bob

    So, Donavon, just so I understand:

    Lombardi retired from coaching, changed his mind, realized he couldn’t rejoin the Packers without creating problems so out of respect for his accomplishments, the Packers let him go? Just let him go? I’m not sure how this has any bearing on recent Packer history (cough) but I find it interesting anyway.

    They must have been nuts back then. Why didn’t they control where he went, like a puppet on a string? Must not have been a business back then. I wonder why they didn’t make sure he at least ended up out of the conference. Should have held him hostage for a boat load of cash and some high draft picks. They sure were dummies back in the day!

  • jake c

    it downright boggles my mind that some self proclaimed packer fans can still support favre.

    no longer can one simply make the argument that you can support both the team and the player. he manipulated his way into playing with our biggest rival (moreso than the bears in my opinion).

    he took a crap on green bay and the whole packers organization. if there was ever a time to pick sides, it has come. i for one will never let one player be more important to me than the team that i grew up supporting.

    this may not be a thought provoking post, but that’s my piece. i’m disgusted and am wiping number 4 from my memory.

  • jake c

    and i think it’s funny how some people (STMILLS) are too ignorant to see the other side. keep being a bully over the web, that will get you far in convincing any of us to side with you.

  • packer_bob

    I don’t understand what the choice part of the equation is. The organization didnt want him and he wants to keep playing, what’s so hard about that?

    I won’t root for him if and when he plays the Pack, but otherwise, I hope he does well in football and in life. Don’t understand why I’m supposed to feel differently.

  • zach

    Brett Favre is a spoiled whiner. Blah blah blah, played through injury, family loss, blah blah blah…..boo effing whoo. When my relatives die, I have to go to work. When I get hurt, I keep going to work, if not, no paycheck. I would like to see BF come to my job and be able to keep up….

    I have never in my life seen such a loser. This ought to be good. Brett playing for Minn. I only can hope.

    Oh yeah, what are all you sackriders gonna do with you $75 number 4 Jets jerseys??? Are you gonna run out and get a purple one?

  • zach

    One more thing….in my opinion, the only way the Packer mishandled the BF situation is by not setting a deadline for his retirement ‘decision’ the first time, how many years ago.

  • Devil’s Advocate…

    I don’t really care what happens………. Favre will do fine in Vikeland, they have a pretty good running game and decent D. It’s a good fit for him cause he does pretty good as long as he has a top D and/or real decent running game but his troubles begin when the pressure falls to him. The Vikes will sell lots of #4 jerseys. The NFL is stealthily behind this also I’m sure, for the ratings. He may end up having beaten every team in the NFL at least once but he also may end up with the record for retiring and un-retiring. But in the end, if you see a guy in too many different uniforms, he starts to look a little funny in the uniform he’ll be remembered for…………..

  • STMills

    Packer Bob,

    I believe you’re right.

    Favre had submitted his “unretire” papers to the NFL but Goodell was holding them to see if Favre would take TT’s $20,000,000 bribe to stay in Kiln (or was it $30,000,000?).

    Yet the fact remains, as you pointed out, that, in this order: Favre decided to play again for the Packers; the Packers didn’t want him; the Packers told him he couldn’t even compete for the starting QB job; and so the Packers traded him.

    By the way, I like your comparison of Favre’s retirement and unretirement to Lombardi’s retirement and unretirement: “Lombardi retired from coaching, changed his mind, realized he couldn’t rejoin the Packers without creating problems so out of respect for his accomplishments, the Packers let him go? Just let him go? I’m not sure how this has any bearing on recent Packer history (cough) but I find it interesting anyway.”

    LOL.

  • Reid

    Packer_Bob,

    You are going to wager on the Vikes against the Pack if Favre plays? Shouldn’t you change your handle to:

    FAVRE_bob

  • Reid

    packer_bob,

    You are going to wager on the Vikes against the Pack if Favre plays for the Vikes? Shouldn’t you change your handle to:

    FAVRE_bob

  • Punk

    Can’t see the relationship of Ringo, Hornung, Taylor, and Lombardi leaving to the Favre situation at all. They all had had it and were being replaced and were eased out graciously along with several others of the SBI and SBII teams. Further, they all knew it and were trying to catch on with expansion and down ‘n out teams just to get another pay check – we all knew it also and didn’t begrudge it. We know how long it took from ’67 to get back to respectability. That was 40 years ago pals so don’t give me the crap that you can even relate, slightly, to the pain we felt when that team broke up. I’m sure over half of you were less than 10 years old and have no idea what you’re talking about trying to compare then to now.

  • Punk

    Since none of us know the real facts lets kick this around: Favre called one too many audibles and just like Holmgren, MM had had it. That then gave TT the perfect leverage with his boss to save 12M to apply to the rebuild which he was hired to do in the first place. Works for me. And if you want to compare Favre to the old timers, lets compare him to Starr and Gregg who had the same longevity; not to Hornung and Taylor who were being replaced by the G’Twins. I agree the league is different today, but class is still class!

  • Pete H

    Starr and Gregg did not have the same longevity. I would hardly call ’59 to ’72 and being abackup the last year or so, not to mention missing X amount of games due to injury the same longevity. Lets kick that out the door.
    Why is not classy to want to play football still? Or change your mind? Why is it not classy to struggle a little more each year with deciding to put yourself through a rigorous training campaign and be away from your family another year? Especially when it was the press who incited the Favre debate each year. I also believe that it all started with the comment….”I am closer to the end than the beginning” Yes that is an awful thing to say…..
    Why had Holgren had it? He wanted a GM job….You don’t think that if he knew that Wolf would be leaving in 2 years he would have stayed? You crazy…..Yes he hated Favre…..3 MVPs….2 Super Bowl trips….3 championship games. Thats awful too.
    There isn’t any situation to compare it to. They all acted like imbiciles, behaved like ego protecting dolts, and went their own ways. TT doesn’t, hasn’t, nor will like Favre and Brett doesn’t, hasn’t, nor will like anything about TT. How about Jordan? Do you think Bulls fans went and tore down his statue when he went to D.C.? He is a damn football player who changed places where he played because he didn’t like the situation where he was as well as the place where he was not liking their situation with him there. What an asshole, SOB, classless loser, jerkoff
    I will say STMills…you missed one step in your order….Favre decided to play again, they flew to Miss. He then retired again…..I understand their frustration.

  • STMills

    Sure thing, Punk. Ringo, Taylor, and Hornung all went to play for other NFL teams because “they were being replaced” (your words), and that has nothing to do with Favre going to play for other NFL teams because he too was being replaced? Uh huh. Totally different situations, eh? Keep drinking the TT Koolaid,

    Oh, say, can you believe this? It turns out Forrest Gregg and Herb Adderley also left the Packers to play for another NFL team – the dreaded Cowboys! And Gregg and Adderley won a Super Bowl with the Cowboys in 1972!

    Oh, no. I’ll have to rewrite my song!

    “Jim Ringo to the Eagles,

    Jim Taylor to the Saints.

    Paul Hornung to the Saints, too,

    And Vince to Washington.

    Gregg became a Cowboy,

    And Adderley joined Gregg.

    And can you just believe this?

    Those two won a Super Bowl!

    They all went to our enemies,

    All for different reasons.

    But we love them anyway,

    Because they were our Packers.

    But as for number four,

    We now have different rules.

    Unlike all the others,

    Favre has no right to play.

    And so we really hate him,

    But still love all the rest!”

  • JeffN

    These comparisons to other players retirements do no apply. Favre’s situation is different, in fact it is unprecedented.

    StMills and PackerBob, you guys talk about this Lombardi comparison like it was your idea to make the comparison. Favre is the one who brought that up when he talked to Joe Buck the other day. I also might add this is a poor comparison because Lombardi did not fake his retirement 2 times just so he could eventually end up with the arch rival to stick to his former organization. No player has ever faked his retirement twice just to stick it to his former team. Let me say this again; This is unprecedented. Brett never wanted to come back to the Packers he showed back up in Green Bay to force a trade or his release. He could have just been up front with organization and said he wanted to either be traded or released and handled all of this behind closed doors. He fooled the Jet’s but not the Packers. This whole situation is why so many fans are so displeased with how Favre’s career is coming to a close.

  • STMills

    Jeff,

    All you provide are distinctions without meaning.

    Indeed, Ringo,Taylor, Hornung, Lombardi, Gregg, and Adderley all had “different situations” too when they went to other NFL teams, but they are all loved by Packers fans.

    Packers fans didn’t parse the “different situations” of Ringo,Taylor, Hornung, Lombardi, Gregg, and Adderley to determine who would be loved and who would be hated.

    They are all loved.

    Or, did you conduct a situation-by-situation analysis of Ringo,Taylor, Hornung, Lombardi, Gregg, and Adderley to determine who had the right to go to other NFL teams?

    If so, please let us in on it.

  • JeffN

    Like others on this board have said they all left graciously. Favre could have done the same but he instead faked his retirement with the intentions of sticking it to the Packers. I’m just saying each of those other retirements are their own situation and none of those individual things apply to this situation. I think Favre loyalists are using those situations as a distraction of what is actually happening with Favre’s situation. Favre said after the end of last season he wanted to come back to stick it to TT. With the whole Vikings thing heating up Brett is now trying to make comparisons to other situations (as he started doing on Joe Bucks show) as a distraction but those other situations really have nothing to do with this situation.

  • STMills

    Jeff,

    “Graciously” is a subjective term. For instance, I think Favre left graciously: he wanted to play for the Packers; the Packers didn’t want him; so he accepted a trade to a very weak team, the Jets. Other players might not have accepted that trade and gone back into retirement. But Favre did, proving right there that what he came back for was to play football, even if it was for an inferior team.

    Your comment that “Favre faked his retirement with the intentions of sticking it to the Packers” is wrong, since we know he came back to play football (read: Jets). And, you’re engaging in pure wild speculation, since you have no idea what Favre’s “intentions” were or are. All we can do is observe facts, and the facts are that he accepted a trade to play for the measly Jets. Read: he came back to play football.

    Finally, why is it so hard for you to accept the simple fact that Favre wanted to play for the Packers and the Packers didn’t want him? Even TT and MM concede they didn’t want him. As they said, the Packers were “moving in a different direction”.

    I am convinced you Favre haters blind yourselves to these facts because when you were clamoring for Favre’s departure you never envisioned him playing for other teams. You miscalculated, as did TT and MM, and you can’t bring yourself to admit it.

  • iccyfan

    STMills Says: “I am convinced you Favre haters blind yourselves to these facts because when you were clamoring for Favre’s departure you never envisioned him playing for other teams. You miscalculated, as did TT and MM, and you can’t bring yourself to admit it.”

    While you are well-written, you appear to entirely lack the ability to understand the other side’s position and you fail to properly distinguish between facts and opinion. I don’t know anyone who was clamoring for Favre’s departure; I do know people who accepted his retirement at face value and were good with seeing what Aaron Rodgers could bring to the table. Likewise, none of my Packer Fan Friends had a problem with Brett extending his career with the Jets (read as “other team”). Conversely, I don’t personally know anybody, Packer & Viking fans together, who really wants to see BF in purple. It’ll be an interesting media frenzy; glad it’s over in Eden Prairie rather than GB!

  • Roy Jamison

    The train left the station a long time ago.

  • STMills

    iccy says: “I don’t know anyone who was clamoring for Favre’s departure.”

    You must be new to this site.

    Welcome.

  • JeffN

    iccy is not new to this site that I can assure you. He has been here as long as I have, probably longer.

    Packer fans were ok with Favre playing for the Jets. You must of missed when Favre said after his season with the Jet’s that he was playing to stick it to the Packers. Favre really did intend that if you listen to what he said. What a better way to stick it to the Packers than to play for the Vikes.

    That’s the face value of this whole situation.

    I’m not hating Favre for doing all of that and I don’t think most people do. It’s his decision. I don’t like all of this but ultimatly Brett Favre is a free American Citizen and he can do whatever he wants. As we all know what you do in life comes with outcomes and in this case consequences. I would rather of seen Brett Favre billboards and Packer hype all over town with his name on it rather than be in the situation we are in. Again tho it’s not our choice it’s his choice so let’s just role with the situation and not be pissed off about it.

  • STMills

    “stick it to the Packers”

    Show me exactly where Favre used those exact words.

    He didn’t.

    In fact his words were the exact opposite.

    He said: “I’ve always been a Packer. I always will be a Packer. Do I play somewhere else? That remains to be seen, but I don’t want to go back there just to stick it to ‘em.”

    Now, you need to distinguish between the Packers and Teddy.

    Teddy is not the Packers; and the Packers are not Teddy.

    I hate Teddy, but I love the Packers.

    So does Favre.

    If Favre wanted, or wants now, to stick it to Teddy, he has every right to do so.

    If I were told I was unwanted by a girly man like Teddy, I’d want to stick it to him, too.

    Once again, haters, stick to the FACTS.

  • STMills

    “you appear to entirely lack the ability to understand the other side’s position”

    I understand perfectly well the other side’s position.

    Teddy didn’t want Favre to come back, even telling Favre he would not be allowed to compete for the starting QB job and would be a backup to a guy who had started three or so NFL games.

    That was the other side’s position, and I understand it perfectly well.

    Now, do YOU understand the side of a football player who wants to play football?

    THAT is where you haters close your eyes.

    You close your eyes and whine that a talented football player who wants to play football should not play for a football team that needs and wants him.

    Now, who is delusional?

  • Roy Jamison

    Left over hash. That’s why they call it rehash.

  • JeffN

    In any case STMills you have brought nothing but an extreme point view not a rational one. I’m not going to take you seriously. A big WHATEVER to your philosohpy on everyone is a hater. Go get some help.

  • JeffN

    zach, I totally got give you credit this post of yours was funny stuff

    “Oh yeah, what are all you sackriders gonna do with you $75 number 4 Jets jerseys??? Are you gonna run out and get a purple one?”

  • STMills

    Sure thing Jeff.

    It’s “extreme” to think a football player should be allowed to play football.

    Uh huh.

    I got it.

  • Roy Jamison

    Hope John Madden comes out of retirement.

  • Michael Legat

    Welcome back, Jon. Curious why you’re using the moniker STMills, though.

  • STMills

    “your philosohpy on everyone is a hater”

    Actually in my world most Packers fans are not haters.

    On this site, well, that’s another matter.

  • JeffN

    Nobody is saying Brett should not play. Another example of your extremism. Now get together with Kevin Roth and go through your 5 stages of grief together. Maybe if you guys go to class together they will give you a discount.

  • voice of reason

    Fact of the fact is that he is gone….and NOT coming back. We could hate him or love him but no matter what we think, he is not our #4. We cannot speculate the things that happened behind closed doors because it makes no difference here… He and the Pac have gone seperate ways and now it is time for us (and him) to move on.

  • CheesyD

    Michael Legat nailed it…

    STMills = Jon

    Yawn

    All this Favre crap… who cares? Let the back-stabbing egomaniac jerk the media around like a yo-yo. He’s washed up. He’s destroyed his legacy. He’s a man without a country. If he joins the Queens, better for the Packer nation. Two easy wins for us.

    Anybody want a Favre autographed Packer helmet? Cheap. Will trade for an Aaron Rodgers. I want one I can actually display without embarrassment.

  • Rocky70

    Whoever wins the punting job in GB should take jersey #4.

    BF is an embarrassment to not only himself but all NFL fans. Check out the 100s of forums/blogs addressing BF. His legacy is shot.

    STMills = Jon – You said you’d be back with a different ID. Unfortunately, your BF jock-smelling attitude is still the same.

    packer_bob = viking_bob

    Who will BF drag down with him as a Viking ?? Look for Chilly & his staff to be unemployed at season’s end. BF is a coach – killer.

  • Punk

    STMills is a throwback who puts two opinions together and comes up with a fact and can’t write without “hate” coming up. Legat and CheesyD you’ve said it best re Jon. Pure and simple AR had the better year. Keep in mind guys; 40 yr old legs and 40 yr old arm. And, yeah, I had to change names too, because as the CBworld says, somebody jumped on my handle. I expect the personal insults to start, again, next.

  • Rocky70

    Some Viking players aren’t all that enamored with the idea of BF as a Viking QB in 2009. BF was a locker-room cancer in NY. Looks like it’s already starting in Minnesota.

    http://blogs.startribune.com/vikingsblog/?p=2983

  • packer_bob

    The Favre haters continue to undress themselves again and again–I would ask any rational person that denies this to simply re-read this thread.

    Yes, I will bet on the Vikings if Favre is playing for them, not because I love Favre but because it makes good business sense. I bet people all the time when I think I’m getting the best of it, heart be damned! (Won tons of money when we beat Frisco on the road, refused to bet the absurd spread when we lost the Super Bowl to Denver)

    Guess I wasn’t a true Packer fan when I refused those bets. And it’s put up or shut
    up or time Al. I’ll bet $100 per game on the Vikes vs. Pack if Favre is the QB for the Vikes. Hell, they’re guaranteed wins, so I must have lost my mind! Easy money for you! Let me know.

  • Rocky70

    -To Admin:

    Isn’t it time to change your background ??

    Remove the old & replace with the new. I like the design but #12 would look better than what you have now. – Time to jettison your blog into 2009.

    Thanks.

    -

  • STMills

    Rocky,

    I don’t know what “forums” you are referring to, because the Green Bay Press Gazette sports forum is full of Packers fans who love the Packers and Favre – and hate Teddy.

    http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com

    Keep drinking “Teddy’s 6-10 Koolaid”.

  • STMills
  • Punk

    Everybody read packer_bob above. There’s a real Packer fan! There goes STM again – hate. Nuts…..!

  • JeffN

    So PackerBob after seeing who you are betting on this season are you a Vikes fan? You a Packer fan? What are you?

  • JeffN

    After seeing some of the comparisons Favre to Rodgers, I think it’s a fair comparison to make. Right now Rodgers is the better QB. Rodgers may never catch Favre on all the stats and Favre will have the better career stats wise but I think Rodgers is the better QB from this point forward. Even with less stats I think Rodgers will win more play off games and more super bowls. Rodgers is a better QB in tight situations and isn’t going to throw a lot of picks which will be the x factor with getting us through the play offs. Play off games come down to turn overs more so than regular season games.

    Also I’m pretty excited about our D-Line this year, I think it’s going to kick ass. Remember I told you guys after this last season that the D-Line is what needs to be addressed I couldn’t shut up about it. I was was constantly bitching about if TT didn’t address that I would be be pissed. I think the Pack did what they needed to do with getting players in here for the D-Line and decreasin to 3 players wasn’t a bad idea either. Now the players just need to play and coaches need coach and we will be all set.

  • STMills

    Jeff says: “Rodgers is a better QB in tight situations”

    You lost all credibility right there.

    Last season Rodgers blew every opportunity he had for a come from behind victory.

    What was he?

    Like 0-for-5?

    Also, the notion that Rodgers, who has yet to win a single game coming from behind and was 6-10 last season, will win “more play off games and more super bowls” than Favre proves you are really Teddy in disguise.

    That, or a Teddy Koolaid addict.

  • Rocky70

    Good post JeffN.

    Have to agree with you. Rodgers will win more big games than BF ever was able to & do it in less time. AR will also remain a class-act his entire career. He won’t take the sorry route BF has taken. It’s sad to see how far BF has fallen.

    The GBPG is a rag along with it’s forum. Any intelligent football fan knows this.

    Koolaid ???? That’s from last year. You don’t have anything better ? Your argument is also old & has been refuted a long time ago. You need new material.

  • Rocky70

    -

    Try this view of BF. You Favre Apologists may want to cover your ears.

    http://www.packersplanet.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5283

    -

  • STMills

    “Have to agree with you. Rodgers will win more big games than BF ever was able to & do it in less time.”

    Thanks for the laugh.

    How old are you guys?

    12?

  • packer_bob

    Good to see Rocky and JeffN have the power to predict the future. Rocky, I hope your right but let’s let Rodgers win one big game before we all start genuflecting.

    Yes, JeffN, you read that right. We only split with the Vikings last year and that was without a competent QB. A person should always bet with their heads, not their heart. Which is why I cleaned up on the Seahawks game last year and layed off the Giants game. I’ve bet against the Packers yet rooted for them many times over the years. I like money; sue me.

  • STMills

    packer_bob,

    It’s NOT the future.

    You see, Rodgers ALREADY has won countless big games, made numerous breathless fourth quarter comebacks, never had a losing season, been to too many Super Bowls to count, and won 6 Super Bowls.

    He’s ALREADY in the Hall of Fame, in fact.

    I was in Canton just yesterday and saw his bust.

    The real question is who comes after Rodgers?

  • CheesyD

    JeffN… I agree.

    Let the Packer haters continue to whine and cry about their fallen, washed up super hero.

    Can’t wait for STMills (Jon) to throw the “you never wore a uniform” crap out again. LOL!

  • justawake

    JeffN says…”I think Rodgers will win more play off games and more super bowls.”

    Your hatred of Favre has caused you to maybe type the stupidest thing ever on this blog, and that’s saying alot.
    The Packers in their history have won 25 playoff games… Favre has 12 of those.
    Its not easy in today’s NFL to win even one playoff game, ask Tony Romo.
    Many have critizied Favre for ONLY winning one superbowl. The current best QB in the game, Peyton Manning, only has one. One of the all time greats, Dan Marino (greatest before Favre broke all his records), has zero.

    Favre supporters are being labelled anti-Packer and now we’re Viking fans???
    Give me a break… Brett did more for Packer fans than TT or anyone else in my lifetime at least. Yes, I’m only 36. He will always be a Packer icon regardless of who he plays for in his last couple of years.

    I think Rodgers will have a successful career in Green Bay and I hope we make it to another Superbowl in my life, but he will have to play ALOT better in those tight situations you were talking about. I recall his 4th quarter QB rating was around 40.

    Please stop the hate. Get over your jealous anger, and lets hope the Packers can somehow make the playoffs this year although it will be alot tougher if Brett plays for the Queens…

  • Roy Jamison

    Good points PackerBob. That win against a very tough Seattle Seahawk team was very well deserved. That loss against the Saints was also well deserved.

  • STMills

    Great post, justawake.

    Especially your take on Jeff’s comment that “Rodgers will win more play off games and more super bowls”.

    I agree with you, that may be the dumbest thing ever recorded on this forum.

    In fairness to Jeff, though, that may be only the second dumbest thing.

    The first dumbest may be Jeff’s other comment that “Rodgers will win more big games than BF ever was able to & do it in less time.”

    Rodgers went 6-10 last season, choking on every opportunity he had to “dial it in” for a fourth quarter comeback, and the guys on this forum are making reservations for his induction in to the Hall of Fame.

    Sometimes, when I visit this forum, I think I’m Jack Nicholson in “One Flew Over the Cuckoo’s Nest”.

  • Rocky70

    -

    justawake = notyetawake

    Keep the old arguments to yourself. We’ve heard all of them from the Favre apologists for over a year now. Those arguments held no water last year & they hold even less this year.

    If you can’t truly support your ‘idol’ with pertinent facts, don’t even try. ‘Real” PackerFans find you boring, repetitive & basically a waste of oxygen. Take all your apologists. Sit around a campfire somewhere. You can tell great stories to each other about the ‘chosen one’ as you all sniff his jock-strap. Pitiful.

  • justawake

    Here’s something new for you to consider Rocky…
    Like it or not, Favre is the Packers icon… FACT
    There are very few people that can reach iconic status.
    Before Favre, Lombardi was the Packers icon even long after his death.
    Throughout the 70s and 80s, most Packer games began old film footage of Vince on the sidelines, a man who died before I was born.
    Joe Namath is still the Jets icon yet to be replaced.
    There are others but very few. Not every team has one.

    Until Favre’s iconic status has been replaced by the next great one, I will continue to regard him as the most important Packer, but I don’t believe that person is currently with the Packers.

    To hate a man simply because he doesn’t know when or even how to quit makes no sense to me.

    In short, Favre-hater=Packers-hater… Deal with that and let go of the hate.

  • iccyfan

    STMills Says: “Now, do YOU understand the side of a football player who wants to play football? THAT is where you haters close your eyes. You close your eyes and whine that a talented football player who wants to play football should not play for a football team that needs and wants him. Now, who is delusional?”

    Jon, you’re were and still are the delusional party! Part One – You continue to skew the facts of BF’s departure from the Green & Gold. Part Two – It’s been noted in numerous articles that Favre’s main incentive to return is to “stick it to Ted”, which by extension means “the Packers”. That’s a bit different than “I just want to play football”.

  • STMills

    iccy says: “Favre’s main incentive to return is to ‘stick it to Ted’, which by extension means ‘the Packers’”.

    It’s obvious that, for you, Teddy is the Packers and the Packers are Teddy (thus when Teddy leaves there will be no Packers).

    But, for the rest of us, Teddy is not the Packers and the Packers are not Teddy.

    Sorry.

    Not that you’re interested in facts, but Favre’s exact words were:

    “I’ve always been a Packer. I always will be a Packer. Do I play somewhere else? That remains to be seen, but I DON’T WANT TO GO BACK THERE JUST TO STICK IT TO THEM.”

    As for sticking it to Teddy, that’s another matter.

    I hate Teddy, but I love the Packers.

    So does Favre.

    If Favre wanted, or wants now, to stick it to Teddy, he has every right to do so – and should do so.

    If I were told I was unwanted by a girly man like Teddy, I’d want to stick it to him, too.

    Just because you would curl up in a pink blanket if Teddy said he didn’t want you, doesn’t mean Favre should.

    Never, ever confuse your whiny self with Favre.

  • Punk

    Yeah, STM, you remind us of Jack in Cuckoo too. Brings to mind Liberals always calling Conservatives “haters”, just because you don’t agree with them, not because of statements or acts done.

  • packer_bob

    If you can’t truly support your ‘idol’ with pertinent facts, don’t even try. ‘Real” PackerFans find you boring, repetitive & basically a waste of oxygen. Take all your apologists. Sit around a campfire somewhere. You can tell great stories to each other about the ‘chosen one’ as you all sniff his jock-strap. Pitiful.-Rocky70

    ^ This gets my vote for the stupidest thing posted on this forum. The 70 must be his IQ points.

    Congratulations Rocky! You must have been anointed by God to separate the “real” fans from the mass of unwashed posers and fakes. Must be a heavy burden but I’m sure you’re up to the challenge!

    When you also gain the power to walk on water and heal the sick, beware of men named Judas.

  • Roy Jamison

    Sure glad Bart Starr ended his career in Green Bay.

  • packer_bob

    Who would care if he hadn’t?

  • Michael Legat

    Can I be the Indian that smothers Nicholson to death with a pillow in Cuckoo’s Nest?

  • iccyfan

    iccy says: “Favre’s main incentive to return is to ’stick it to Ted’, which by extension means ‘the Packers’”.

    STMills Says:
    “It’s obvious that, for you, Teddy is the Packers and the Packers are Teddy (thus when Teddy leaves there will be no Packers). But, for the rest of us, Teddy is not the Packers and the Packers are not Teddy. Sorry. Not that you’re interested in facts…”

    Actually, none of what you write is obvious and I’m all about facts. Simple question for you. If Favre joins the Viqueens and they beat the Packers twice next season, will he be “sticking it to the Packers”?

  • Punk

    packer_bob’s last posts: 1)”Guess I wasn’t a true Packer fan________.” 2)”I’ve bet against the Packers__________.” 3)”_________beware of men named Judas.” and then 4)when RoyJ said he was glad Starr ended career in GB p_b says: “Who would care if he hadn’t?” He has convinced me, guys, packer_bob is a GREAT Packer fan!

  • STMills

    iccy says: “If Favre joins the Viqueens and they beat the Packers twice next season, will he be ‘sticking it to the Packers’”?

    That’s a question of his intent (fact). He has said that is not his intent (fact), that what he wants to do is play football (fact). And that’s what he’s done (fact). Play football (fact). He wanted to play for the Packers (fact). But they didn’t want him (fact). The Packers traded him to the Jets (fact). He accepted the trade (fact). And played for the Jets (fact). That didn’t work out (fact). Now he is looking to play for the Vikings (fact).

    Based on the facts – what he has said and done – Favre wants to play football, whether it’s for the Packers (who didn’t want him), the Jets (who did want him), or the Vikings (who might want him).

    There are the facts; chew on them.

  • Punk

    Well, Rocky70, there’s your facts. Some more, more meaningful, facts: expenditures up 4%, player costs up 11%, on revenues up only 3%, while enduring a 6-10 season. Further, profit down only $1.3M while investment income declined $19M. 81K still on the waiting list for the real franchise treasure. Compared to the rest of the NFL you’ve just got to love this management team.

  • iccyfan

    STMills Says: “That’s a question of his intent.”

    So we agree that his intentions are questionable!!! That’s progress…

  • jackson

    justawake posted one of the few blogs that make sense. farve haters, you sound like 8th grade girls that just found out their boyfriend is kissing someone else. and al….how many times have you stated no more Favre talk….amazing.

  • Punk

    Kerry Byrne’s COLD, HARD FOOTBALL FACTS lists Starr No. 1 and Favre No. 10 with a mixture of current and past legends in between. Regardless of all the statistics, its leadership and control that win championships and that weighed heavily in his thesis. I’m also put off when the detractors cite the “much better” teams Bart had. Let me tell you pups Bart never had, as good as they were, a “Minister of Defense”.

  • packer_bob

    Punk,

    I don’t understand much of your last post but let me try to help you understand the way I view things.

    It wouldn’t matter a lick to me if Starr had finished his career somewhere else. I don’t understand why it should and still don’t understand what Roy meant when he brought it up. I think he meant to diminish Favre’s situation by comparison but whatever.

    Do you guys honestly think if Starr had played a season or two somewhere else at the twilight of his career it would mean he was less of a Packer or a person? I don’t get why it should. Reggie White didn’t begin or end his career with us but he was a vital piece of the puzzle in our resurgence in the 90’s and always left it all on the field. Am I supposed to be bitter that he played his last season in Carolina? Why? I mean sure, we’d all prefer our superstar players began and ended their career in Green Bay but that is rare and will probably be more so in the future. If we start using who ended their career with the Pack as a dividing point we will have to pull a whole lot of plaques out of our Hall of Fame. Maybe you’re OK with that but I’m not.

    When I bet, I try to make sure I’m getting the best of it. This is the point of betting. I don’t make a habit of betting for or against the Packers but when I think the line is off one way or the other and believe I have a handle on who is going to win and why, I go with it. This is why in our last playoff games I cleaned up by betting against the Seahawks, who I thought we would tear up, but didn’t bet on the game against the Giants, who I thought we would beat but wasn’t certain enough to put money on it. (Thank God!)

    The point of wagering is to win money. I haven’t bet against the Packers very often (I prefer to just layoff) but if I have a strong feeling they’re going to lose and the line says otherwise (like the playoff loss to Minnesota) I will run with it. If that makes me less of a fan in your eyes, whatever. I’ve been going to Packer games since the 70’s, jack. When we lost the Super Bowl to Denver I was sick for a week. (Didn’t lose any money though as I knew we were favored by too much and couldn’t get anyone privately to take the Packers -7, which I was willing to give.)

    I don’t understand how you or some of the other potato heads on this board think you have the right to decide who is or isn’t a fan, or how much of one. But please don’t impugn my credibility as a Packer fan ever again.

  • packer_bob

    Punk Says:

    June 20th, 2009 at 10:04 pm
    packer_bob’s last posts: 1)”Guess I wasn’t a true Packer fan________.” 2)”I’ve bet against the Packers__________.” 3)”_________beware of men named Judas.” and then 4)when RoyJ said he was glad Starr ended career in GB p_b says: “Who would care if he hadn’t?” He has convinced me, guys, packer_bob is a GREAT Packer fan!

    This is the post I was referring to above.-PB

  • Jeff Smith

    Death of a hero indeed.
    When someone who rescued a franchise is treated the way Tsquared treated him, then all bets of fan judgement are off. If the pack thinks Brett truely is washed up, prove it by giving him some respect and relasing him – if he goes into the same division, so what, you need to beat him twice then. TT has a hidden ego that wouldn’t allow BLF or even Andrew Brandt (who interviewed for Murphys job) in the Packers orginization. Good work TT, your new contract negotiator pooched both popingas and grants contracts.
    Frankly TT pressured a quick decision. Then implied that Brett changed his mind so he’s not capable of being our qb. Meanwhile, AR is the 4th quarter chokemaster. To quote Colin Cowherd, the same team was one play away from the superbowl then went 6-10 the next year minus Brett. Tsquared, during the saga, changed his mind more than once – we want bret back as a backup (lie), err no, we think he should stay retired, err, no, we welcome him back if he will compete for the starting job (lie). So by his own standards TT should resign. Maybe free agents didn’t want to come to the Pack this year because if TT would abuse Brett, they could see the same or worse happening to themselves. TT has put together a team that over 5 years has a net losing record. I could do the same. TT made sure the saga went on and on last year so that Bret would have the least chance to succeed then traded him to a place with a completely new offense. The result? BLF outlpayed AR before the biceps injury with recieving corps that wouldn’t even crack the Packers’ top 3 WRs. Good work TT. I guess instead of optimizing talent and winning now, TTs master plan is to get rid of the best players and lose now. Lose Now with cap space, good plan TT.

  • Punk

    I have every right to decide who I think is a loyal fan and who isn’t. And in my opinion you are not, so what? Further, I’m not one of those who cares a whit where, when, or if Favre plays, again, so what? And you could be a very rich gambler……………….who cares and so what?

  • STMills

    Hey Guys,

    Check out this “HaterNet” website:

    http://tinyurl.com/HaterNet

  • packer_bob

    Well, I think you’re not a real fan. So there. (I’m sticking out my tongue.) Nyeah, Nyeah!

    What are you, 5 years old? You don’t even know me, so how the hell can you presume to know how much of a fan I am. That’s like me saying I have the right to think you’re a homosexual–I don’t.

  • packer_bob

    Funny, STMills, Funny!

  • JeffN

    STMills and PackerBob, who ever brought up hate? You guys did. That means it’s you that have an issue with hate not everyone else. You are the tiny contingent of fans who have hate issues. You might also want to understand that not everyone cares about you guys as much as you think they do and people are not going to listen to your old news and buy into your “everyone is a hater philosophy”.

  • JeffN

    PackerBob you admitted on this sight to that you bet against the Packers. A lot of Packer fans are going to reject you as a fan if you go around bragging about stuff like that. It’s common sense and it’s just how it is.

    You can’t bet against your team and then piss and mone when other fans don’t want you as a fan.

  • STMills

    “So we agree that his intentions are questionable.”

    Not at all.

    That something is a question of a person’s intent does not mean that the person’s intent is questionable.

    It means the person’s intent is an open question that must be ascertained.

    And a person’s intent can be ascertained solely by looking at what the person says and does (not by what emotionally challenged haters say).

    In this regard, what Favre has said and done all point to one thing: his return was motivated by a simple desire to play football, and not by “sticking it to the Packers”, as you foolishly claim.

    Once again, here is what Favre has said and done:

    He said it was not his intent to stick it to the Packers (fact). He said he just wanted to play football again (fact). And that’s what he’s done (fact). Play football (fact). He wanted to play for the Packers first (fact). But the Packers didn’t want him (fact). So the Packers traded him to the Jets (fact). He accepted the trade to the Jets (fact). And he played for the Jets (fact). That didn’t work out (fact). Now he is looking to play for the Vikings (fact).

    Based on these facts – what Favre has said and done – Favre simply wants to play football, whether it’s for the Packers (who didn’t want him), the Jets (who did want him), or the Vikings (who might want him).

    Indeed, if Favre’s return was motivated by an intent to “stick it to the Packers”, as you claim, why did he first seek to play for the Packers? He wanted to play for the team he wanted to stick it to?

    Your mind is so deranged from hatred you can’t even make sense.

  • packer_bob

    When did I call everyone a hater? I don’t believe I’ve said anything like that, except that I don’t get the level of vitriol directed at Favre and that he is free to do what he wants to do.

    Most of my posts with regards to Favre have been in defense of his time in Green Bay and they are almost always in direct response to something someone said. I don’t just bring it up to bring it up.

    I also have never been under the impression that anyone cares what I think or that I am going to change anyone’s mind. But this is a chat and opinion board, so one something says something I disagree with, I present my point of view. If you’re not interested, skip my posts.

    Also, please don’t lump me together with STMills. He has his points, I have mine. We are two separate people. It’s hard for me to take someone seriously that puts words in my mouth and lumps me together with someone else’s arguments.

  • packer_bob

    First of all, I wasn’t bragging when I said I have bet against the Packers, I was merely stating a fact.

    Secondly, being a fan and wagering for money are two different things. I wanted Ricky Hatton to beat Manny Pacquio, but knew Manny had a huge edge, and therefore bet on him but rooted for Hatton. What should I have done, bet on Hatton so I could be disappointed and broke too?

    I don’t habitually bet for or against the Packers, only in select cases where I believe I have a good edge. 90% of the time over the last 15 years or so this has been for the Packers, but I’d be lying if I didn’t say I have bet against them a few select times.
    That playoff loss to Minnesota is a good example. I felt I knew we were going to lose that game. When I feel I have that level of certainty, I bet it.

    I have been a fan of the Packers for over thirty years, have enough gear to open my own mini-proshop, have attended over thirty games home and away; I don’t give you or anyone else the right to tell me I’m not a fan and know you wouldn’t if this were a face to face conversation. If you boys aren’t intelligent enought to recognize the difference between who you cheer for and where the smart money goes, that’s your problem.

  • Punk

    Man, this is rich! packer_bob sticks his tongue out and I’m 5, just too many ha-has. Good to hear from you again ST(Jon)Mills. Thats quite a club you guys belong to. Anybody want to talk about the current Packers?

  • STMills

    Punk says: “Anybody want to talk about the current Packers?”

    Al and Kevin don’t, that’s why they put up the editorial you should have read above.

  • JeffN

    Well it’s more so your supporting poster STMills that speaks of hate, so sorry for the guilty by association factor. Still tho betting against the Packers is unacceptable to me any facet or circumstance. And all the the betting you speak of sounds like bragging to me.

  • packer_bob

    That’s called sarcasm, Punk. I post a fairly lengthy response to you to explain my point of view and your response is “not a real fan, who cares, blah blah.” That’s why Iasked if you were 5–your responses are infantile. I wasn’t literally sticking my tongue out either and am surprised I have to point that out.

    As STMills said, this entire thread is about Favre potentially joining the Vikings and how one guy feels about. (How about equal time, Al. You let someone voice your opinion for you by proxy, why not post an opposing view.) I have chimed in about the current Packers in many of the other threads and will again when one gets going.

  • packer_bob

    Oh, no, JeffN, it’s not bragging. My football betting is infrequent. It’s been profitable overall but far from anything to brag about. I have cited select examples to illustrate my larger point that being a fan is rooting for your team and wagering is making your best informed decision to show a profit.

    Going back to that Denver super bowl, for instance, I dodged a major bullet not by being smart (I would have lost major money to anyone who would give me the Packers straight up, I really thought we were going to win) but by being stingy about the point spread. I think the spread on that game was about 13 points and we had just issued a beat down to the 49ers on the road in the NFC championship game, which at the time I think many were considering the real Super Bowl. I just couldn’t bring myself to give up those points, which would have been easy to do if I got carried away with being a fan. I felt the true spread should have been 7-10 points and since I couldn’t find anybody to wager on Denver and take less than the real line I lost no money. I still was way wrong about the outcome of the game, as I’m sure we both remember all too well.

    I’ve had some real mistakes on both the Packers and other teams. I lost my ass on the 4th and 26 Philly game, although I still think I had the right idea and we should have won. I also lost on the Atlanta playoff loss, which in retrospect was a big blunder on my part. So don’t misunderstand–I was using certain examples to illustrate a point and not trying to make out like I’m some master gambler and never lose.

  • jake c

    get a life stmills, you complain about how we all drink teddy’s kool aid, maybe you should go post on a different forum. what a loser. we’re all wrong but you’re right.

    keep talking big and bad sitting at a computer.

  • STMills

    Favre already under contract with the Vikings?

    http://www.rotoworld.com/content/playerpages/playerbreakingnews.asp?sport=NFL&id=1744&line=145352&spln=1

    jake,

    Calling me names only shows how pathetically incapable you are of responding substantively to my posts.

    Now go eat cake . . .

  • iccyfan

    STMills Says: “And a person’s intent can be ascertained solely by looking at what the person says and does. In this regard, what Favre has said and done all point to one thing: his return was motivated by a simple desire to play football, and not by “sticking it to the Packers.”

    Are you keeping a straight face as you spend hour after hour typing this drivel? Surely you jest. It’s not worth my time to issue individual rebuttals to your “points”, given that you never answered my simple Yes or No question. I’ve got to give props to you on the sheer entertainment front, as you’re hilarious!

  • STMills

    I’ve answered your question twice.

    You’re just too dense to notice.

  • STMills

    Jeff Smith has a good post above.

    Unfortunately it appears to have been lost amidst all the crap written by JeffN.

    Mr. Smith, though, makes many excellent points, such as:

    “Maybe free agents didn’t want to come to the Pack this year because if TT would abuse Brett, they could see the same or worse happening to themselves.”

    “TT has put together a team that over 5 years has a net losing record.”

    “TT made sure the saga went on and on last year so that Bret would have the least chance to succeed then traded him to a place with a completely new offense. The result? BF outlpayed AR before the biceps injury with recieving corps that wouldn’t even crack the Packers’ top 3 WRs.”

    “I guess instead of optimizing talent and winning now, TTs master plan is to get rid of the best players and lose now. Lose Now with cap space.”

    Good stuff, Jeff.

    They’re gonna hate you here.

  • packer_bob

    Getting back to the original essay from above, I just re-read it and still don’t get it.

    Let’s break it down:

    Along with the rest of the world, I bought into the hero worship of the the legendary Brett Favre. He was marketed as the ultimate competitor, the simple guy who just loves football and doesn’t let any of the hype go to his head.

    Not sure what hero worship means to Kevin Roth, but I feel most Packer fans were also huge Brett Favre fans. Speaking for myself, he was fun to watch, never missed a game and was a big time winner. Hero worship is way too strong a term for my feelings for the man, but huge fan would be accurate.

    Mr. Roth loses me a little bit with his next sentence. Does anyone not view Favre as a competitor or doubt that he loves football? The sentence implies that these adjectives were marketing and therefore not true but I still think they are bona fide. We could argue all day about whether or not hype and stardom have gone to Favre’s head. An assessment of this is completely subjective so I would argue we can’t know what’s inside the man’s head.

    To me Favre has always seemed low key, frank and about winning whenever I’ve heard him speak and that includes to this day. Of course the man has an ego. Most great athletes do. Remember when the Vicodin addiction broke and Favre said “Don’t bet against me.” That kind of statement recquires ego and since the statement itself occurred many years ago I would argue he’s probably always been that way rather than something “going to his head.”

  • packer_bob

    Well, the truth has come out and true character revealed. The same guy who criticized Javon Walker for not honoring his contract has now pulled a Terrel Owens to get himself in position to play for the team of his choosing. Favre appears to think that because of who he is, the rules do not apply and should be able to retire and unretire to play for whomever he wishes.

    I don’t get this. Did Favre somehow not honor his contract? The Javon Walker contract situation and his comments on it are not relevant unless you think he somehow wasn’t honoring his contract. The Walker situation was about money. If Brett was just about the money, it would have been far easier to take the marketing deal the Packers offered and just stay home.

    To the next point, Favre wanted to come back and play for the Packers last year and they said no. Both parties had to agree to the trade to the Jets and they did. What rules were broken? If you are referring to this past off-season, the Jets gave him his release. How are rules being broken or Favre above the rules?

  • packer_bob

    “Sorry to tell you Brett, but not everyone thinks that way. GM Ted Thompson made what I think is the right decision not to allow him to unretire and play for the Packers last season. At that point I did still respect Favre a great deal, but the constant “will he or won’t he play” game year after year was getting really old. I am sure Thompson was as sick of it as most people (if not more so) and finally said enough is enough. Good for Ted, one big question answered and let’s move on.”

    If you think TT made the right decision, fair enough. I agree the “will he/won’t he”
    drama was getting old but a counter argument could be made that he earned the right to think it over each season. I also believe that had TT really wanted Favre back and been proactive about it, most of this could have been avoided.

  • packer_bob

    “The truth is that regardless of Favre ever becomes a Viking or if he decides to hang it up for real this time, the damage has already been done. Favre’s selfishness and huge ego has been revealed and there is no going back now. My hero has died. I have gone through 4 of the 5 stages of grief (minus acceptance). The only difference between this situation and an actual death is that instead of my being able to grieve the loss and move on, Favre keeps coming back to haunt us. It is so hard to move on from this though when it just won’t go away.”

    A person can feel anyway they want about the situation, I suppose. However, I don’t understand why Favre wanting to continue to play football makes him selfish. It’s his life and he should do what he wants with it. The ego thing I feel I’ve already covered–he has one as all of the great ones do.

  • Michael Legat

    Zzzzzz…..

  • packer_bob

    “I suppose this whole debacle has helped me learn a lesson. There are no true role models in professional sports, and when you think you’ve found one they will disappoint you. Professional athletes are just people like everyone else, and make mistakes just like everyone else.”

    I agree, if you are looking at people who throw and kick a ball around for a living to be your role models, you are probably looking in the wrong place.

    However, let’s list a few of the qualities one can associate with Favre.

    1. Competive/Driven. The man had one losing season while here. Never missed a start. Played through pain and family strife.

    2. Perseverence. All time record for consecutive starts at his position, will be all time leader at any position with 2 more starts. In addition to luck, the man has worked hard to keep himself in shape or it wouldn’t have happened. My understanding is he worked hard to keep himself mentally sharp by reviewing films/gameplans of opponents etc.

    3.Loyalty. Several years ago, Deanna was to the point of leaving him. He changed his ways and has kept his family together.

    4.Fearless. This quality has led to us all banging our heads on the wall from time but you can’t say the man is afraid to take risks. Included in this is leaving the Packers, perhaps the biggest risk of all.

    5.Love of the game. The reason Favre has so many fans that aren’t even Packer fans is in part due to the obvious joy he brings to playing the game. I’ve talked to many Bear fans that are closet Favre fans. Don’t we all wish we could bring that level of enthusiasm to what we do for a living.

    I could keep going but surely you get the point. None of us are without flaws but I think as this partial list shows, certainly we can all agree that Favre possesses role model worthy qualities. I think if you can get past your initial disappointment, you should be able to recognize this. Your years as a Favre fan were not in vain.

  • STMills

    It’s real simple:

    Jim Ringo
    Jim Taylor
    Paul Hornung
    Forrest Gregg
    Herb Adderley
    Vince Lombardi
    Mike Holmgren
    Reggie White
    Brett Favre

    All “tainted legacies”.

  • packer_bob

    Ignore it if you want, Michael. I don’t have anything better to do right now and wanted to bring the conversation back to the original post rather than participate in all the name calling.

  • JeffN

    Wow that’s a lot of boring. Can we put a post limit per forum and a limit to the size of the post.

  • packer_bob

    Skip it then.

  • Matt Hayton

    Wow…haven’t been around for a while…looks like the SOS to me. Here’s my take- If Favre were Randall Cunningham or Vinny Testaverde or Warren Moon, etc., no one would care, but for some crazy reason because he’s Brett Favre, he’s a traitor, everyone hates his guts on the one side and on the other side there’s the, “he just wants to play football” purist BS. The fact is Brett doesn’t give a shit what you, me or anyone else thinks… Fact: He does just want to play football and it just so happens it is with the arch-rival Viqueens, which makes him the arch-enemy as soon as he steps on the football field, along w/AP and all the other chumps they’ve got over there.. And there isn’t a damn thing that anyone of us can do about it. So let’s move on.

  • iccyfan

    “And there isn’t a damn thing that anyone of us can do about it. So let’s move on.”

    Alright then! Sideshow_Bob thinks BF is akin to John Wayne and I feel he’s more like this star of the big and small screens. TV & Movies for $300, Alex – What character’s signature line is, “Whateva, Whateva, I’ll do what I want!”

  • Roy Jamison

    PackerBob, my point was if Bart hadn’t ended his career in GB, this site would still be talking about it.

  • JeffN

    Hayton, I totally agree with it’s time to move on. Some of the guys posting here can’t move on. Rodgers is the QB in Green Bay let’s be happy we have someone of his high calibur to move on with.

  • Rocky70

    @ PB

    Yea, yea we know. BF is a an eagle scout.
    Boy do you need some counseling & quick. Your obsession with an individual you’ve never met or talked too is alarming.

    It’s near impossible to move on with viking_bob posting his ‘soon to be released’ novel entitled – “It Moves Everytime I Think Of Brett”.

  • STMills

    Can someone please help me? I am told only one of the following has a tainted legacy, but I can’t for the life of me figure it out. Most of these former Packers left for other teams because Green Bay didn’t want them anymore, however some – Vince Lombardi and Mike Holmgren come to mind – left because they wanted to. Hmm. I just can’t figure it out . . .

    Jim Ringo
    Jim Taylor
    Paul Hornung
    Forrest Gregg
    Herb Adderley
    Vince Lombardi
    Mike Holmgren
    Reggie White
    Brett Favre

  • Roy Jamison

    And wasn’t James Lofton run out of town? That was a good move.

  • jackson

    8th grade little girls, most of you..grow up and quit the back stabbing, name calling, BS, unless you like to be called 8th grade little girls…….now that is name calling. By the way, i nailed iccy’s partner this weekend and IT was good. word!

  • JeffN

    StMills says, “can someone please help me?”

    I would agree you need lot’s of help!!!

  • JeffN

    STMills says, “I just can’t figure it out”

    NO KIDDING!!!

  • Michael Legat

    Right, Mills, like you’re worth debating anymore. Go hump a knot in a tree.

  • packer_bob

    Rocky70,

    It seems every time I read one of your posts you’re taking potshots at Favre or me, so who’s obsessed again?

    For those of you that want to move on, blame your host. He’s the one that started that this shit again through a mouthpiece. I’m merely commenting.

  • Roy Jamison

    Lynn Dickey and Randy Wright retired as Packers too. Don’t think they played 16 years in one town however.

  • iccyfan

    jackson Says: “By the way, i nailed iccy’s partner this weekend and IT was good.”

    I live in a very liberal city where use of the word “partner” in this context is generally a euphemism for same-sex coupling. I believe jackson (= paul the pretend psychiatrist) just suffered a freudian slip. :)

  • JeffN

    PackerBob, I do agree Al and now his stand in do keep bringing this stuff up. It’s going to be a topic as long as those guys talk about it.

  • JeffN

    Although moving on has nothing to do with the topic coming up. To me moving on is just accepting the fact that Favre is going to do whatever he wants and there is nothing any of us can do about. So basically accepting the situation and not being pissed off about it is moving on to me.

  • RayL

    For the BF haters. You disgust me. You all actually want to see #4 get injured by a Packer player…you all are acting like Bears or Steeler fans….it’s absolutely repulsive. I have lost much respect for (some) packer fans. If the shoe fits – wear it…you know who you are.

  • RayL

    TT is the devil here…..he started this cancer in GB and things will never be good in GB until he is gone…..

  • Oconomowockid

    I agree when the devil (TT) leaves we can move on. Fire the devil!!!!

  • WayneE

    It is real simple. Favre earned the right to play for any team that wants him. TT clearly wanted Favre to retire, but at the same didn’t didn’t want him to play for any other team. So, what does a competitor like Favre do? It is no different than then you employer who you’ve been very loyal to suddenly wants you gone, brings in the new kid and gives him your job. Don’t you want to stick it to your former employer – especially after you gave him your entire professional life. Give Brett a break. I don’t know him personally. He may or may not be a prima donna. But I know two things for sure: 1) Even at 39 he is a better QB than most and 2) He is fun to watch. If Ted wanted him gone all he had to do a year ago was give Favre an outright release. He had earned that much. But TT was the selfish one. He wanted Favre gone but also didn’t want anyone in the NFC North to get him – especially the Vikes. Well guess what, Favre has gotten his wish. If he fails, then, oh well, he was just past his prime. But if he succeeds, then TT will look like the self-centered one. Yeah, it might be a business, but its personal between TT and BF.