Nonstop to nowhere

Yeah folks, I’m still alive. In my preparations for hari kari it occurred to me that all may not be lost. As someone pointed out it took the Packers 29 years to win their third Super Bowl and staying with the same pace the Packers are almost half way to another one. Who knows with a little luck they might pull it off in 27 or 28 years. Anytime in my lifetime would be nice.

It certainly is not going to happen this year. This year’s edition of the Green Bay Packers is headed nonstop to nowhere. With the division title out of reach barring a complete Viking breakdown, the Packers are playing for a wildcard berth which I believe will take an 11-5 record. That means the Packers would have to win seven of their last nine games, which I don’t see happening.

There are too many teams in the hunt. The only good thing is that the only teams on the Packers schedule that are in the wildcard hunt are the Cowboys, Bears, Cardinals, and 49ers. Only the Cowboys really scare me. I still believe the Cardinals won’t have anything to play for the last week of the season, even after their embarrassing loss last week. The Packers are at least equal to the Bears and 49ers and I think better. If the Packers were to win those four it would be huge in the tiebreaker and the only other NFC games are Tampa Bay and Detroit, two sure wins. The real problems are Pittsburgh and Baltimore, two sure losses. That only leaves one game to lose and the Packers are out. 10-6 won’t get them in and probably won’t even get them second place in their own division.

Of course the Packers might not win another game if they can’t find a way to pass block. Seven games into the season the Packers still have no starting five they can count on and either didn’t try or couldn’t find any help once the weakness was obvious. Trying to play pro football with a semi-pro line is not cutting it. Chad Clifton better be back this week and the Barbre experiment should come to a timely death. Mark Tauscher is ready to retake his starting position and certainly can do no worse. The Colledge experiment could come to end too if Jason Spitz is ready to play. Something has to be done.

The pressure is on head coach Mike McCarthy now more than ever. He can’t seem to fix the Packers problems even though he says he will every week. The “we’re gonna do what we did last week, what we always do and improve” line is wearing very thin. If even there had been minor improvement you could maybe give him the benefit of the doubt, but the refusal to adapt and adjust is a big negative. Mike Holmgren was a master of adjusting to his personnel, something McCarthy or Dom Capers have not been able to do. Ted Thompson finally made a big move in the draft by moving up to draft Clay Matthews, its time McCarthy makes his big move, but it might be a little late coming.

I’ll tell you, when you get close to the end, a lot of stuff goes through your mind, fortunately enough of it was positive. I apologize for the brief downtime. Those of you who know me know how the Packers are my life blood. Sad as it is.

I’ll get that cleaned up.

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  • Mark Troy

    McCarthy’s problem from the beginning was the adoption of the Zone Blocking scheme. It didn’t help that TT didn’t keep one of the two pro bowl guards (ahem Wahle) in his first year purge of the Packer’s former personnel.
    There are no studs on that line (except the relatively ancient Clifton and Tauscher (although Spitz is pretty good)). No big studs have been drafted, no franchise tackles. Not having a good dominating offensive line won’t win you a lot of games. No running game, and your excellent QB getting face planted every other play.
    McCarthy cannot fix the offensive line because he does not have the personnel, and those who were drafted were drafted because of their fit into the aweful zone blocking scheme.

  • Can’t argue with you Mark.

  • Jack in Columbus

    Al – Thanks for sticking with the team and the website. Both are worth your continued devotion.

  • Sammy

    Too bad that Iccy sees facts as drivel. The truth hurts sometimes but life is full of pain, deal with it.

    Hoping to get hot late, get a wild card, and do what Arizona did last year, but instead, win the superbowl. It is possible, but not probable.

  • Mark Troy

    Oh yeah, Please keep this site up!! It’s great.
    I appreciate the hell out of it!
    I love the article links. I live in Bear country and need this website to stay in contact with my soul team.

    Thank you!

  • It has to be coaching not getting their message across when a player says “all I can do is play the calls they call. If they want me to stop the run a lot, that’s what I got to do.” That IS what we want him to do but apparently the defensive line is not buying into the philosophy. Ryan Pickett is, but the rest seem like a bunch of whiny little bitches.

  • I’d just like to say that except for OT we’re a much better team this year. Harvin was the biggest factor Sunday starting his first return. Kicking short was the best coaching move all day, I don’t know why we went away from that. I’m going to reiterate that we’re too young and at this point we need patience above all else. Let’s let the season play out.
    I want to add my thanks again to Al for hosting this site.

  • jonnyfootballhero

    – “I’m going to reiterate that we’re too young and at this point we need patience above all else.”

    I think this is part of the problem. Too young for three years in a row. Its gotta stop. Key Free Agents are needed on this team to help provide leadership, discipline, and more talent. I realize that FAs don’t always work out, but either do high draft picks all the time. At least you know that high priced FA has done it on a Pro level and isn’t a complete crap shoot.

  • monty

    hey Al

    Even though we dont always see eye to eye on how to improve our team, I want to thank you too for the site. Living overseas, it helps me stay in touch with the team and all the Packer Fans. Its always a fall for the team when they are use to winning for so long. I dont care for Brett Favre’s diva methods but he didnt choose to leave the team, but enough on that. Im with you I dont see anything better than 9-7 this year and its time to clean house and keep the talent TT got us through the draft and bring in a GM/HC that will get us back to winning. As I have stated before, not many teams use the ZBS and those that did scraped it and returned to more power type football. When you cant run screens because your linemen keep getting bowled over and your backs cant catch, its time to change the scheme. I am with you, Im tired of all the excuses McCarthy keeps giving us instead of making the real chances necessary. The team needs to be more disciplined, JJ head butt will get him fined from the League, but McCarthy needs to send a message to him too, maybe a one game suspension will wake him up. Go PACK

  • Pete H

    Al, its a great site. You know I think that, I’ve been here for years. Mark from Troy, please no more of the Wahle stuff. He got almost 10 mill. a year. I am with you on several moves that have or haven’t been made, but not that one. He made one pro bowl and has been cut twice since then. MM is simply just not getting thru to his team. It is the same mistakes by rookies and veterans alike. Youth is not the problem, the coaching of it has been. As was pointed out earlier…kicking to Harvin again after kicking short worked twice in a row. A 52 yd field goal attempt with an inaccurate kicker in cold windy conditions when you will still need another stop, which you haven’t done, and another field goal. Doesn’t make sense. Bad penalties by vets and rookies alike.

  • packer_bob

    How come nobody seems to want to talk about the back to back ass whuppin’s we put on the Lions and Browns anymore? Or our highly ranked D, or our number six ranked running back?

    At least we have the Bucs this week. I sense a big “improvement” coming.

    Welcome back, Al! Just remember, if we replace MM/TT sooner rather than later that next SB might come sooner than 15-16 years.

  • 25 Yrs Pack

    Pressure? I thought you said MM is here not matter what for the next couple years. Thought his job was safe? Thought i was wrong for using the word hotseat for MM if a loss happened? Thought he was sitting on ice blocks?

  • 25 Yrs Pack

    Zone blacking scheme is great, it wins championships and cant be stopped. Just ask the 97 Packers defense. Oh yeah, thats if your Mike Shanahan and Terrell Davis, and a quick AND massive line, and hard hitting tight ends. Hmmmm….would a smart person adopt such a scheme with an aged hurt Ahman Green when you came in, get rid of your large young linemen, and have a TD cathing tight end(bubba) and no real hard block tight ends? No a smart person wouldn’t, but MM would!

  • 25 Yrs Pack

    that would be the Zone blOcking scheme, i’m not actually familiar with the zone blacking sceme

  • matt

    McCarthy has to make a commitment to run the ball. He abandons it early and especially in the red zone. Our receivers can’t get open easily there when the defense drops 8 in coverage. We have to run the ball.

    I understand that McCarthy is concerned that if we don’t gain yards running the ball, then we have to face third and long. Even so, our linemen have to win the battles in the trenches to win the game.

    I think Colledge stinks. He isn’t nasty and he plays to start, but not to win. If I was the head coach, this would be my offensive line:

    LT – TJ Lang
    LG – Jason Spitz
    C – Scott Wells
    RG – Josh Sitton
    RT – Allen Barbre

    I believe the tackles have the ability and they are improving every week. Many of the sacks could be avoided if Rodgers would pass the ball within three to four seconds. I saw that Rodgers held the ball for 6.7 seconds before being sacked. That is too much to ask of any offensive line.

    Go Pack Go!

  • Jay

    First, Al, thank you for bringing this site back. It is great.

    I have rarely posted on because I enjoy reading all of the posts and comments. But I have had enough with this mediocre crap when it comes to the Packers.

    I have heard and read that some believe the ’09 Packers are better than the ’08 Packers. I totally disagree. The 2009 Packers are no better and may be worse than the 2008 Packers through the first 7 games of the season. Here is a comparison of the 2009 and 2008 teams (comparisons based on first 7 games of ’09 and ’08):

    2009 (4-3) 2008 (4-3) no improvement, same record as ‘08

    2009 (187) 2008 (194) ’09 offense has scored 7 pts less

    2009 (134) 2008 (159) improvement, D has allowed 25 less pts than ’08

    2009 (19-23, .452 %) 2008 (20-25, .444%)

    2009 (7-23, .233%) 2008 (6-18, .250%)

    2009 (12-3, .800 %) 2008 (13-7, .650 %)

    2009 (20 pts) 2008 (14 pts) improvement

    2009 (9 pts) 2008 (8 pts) no improvement

    2009 (17 / 5 / +12) 2008 (14 / 8 / +6) improvement

    2009 (31) 2008 (13) this is plain awful – 34 total sacks entire ‘08 season

    2009 (12) 2008 (12) no improvement

    2009 (14) 2008 (12) thrown 2 more TD’s in ’09 (amazing considering the sacks)

    2009 (5) 2008 (5) no improvement

    2009 first 7 games
    Chicago W 21-15
    Cincinnati L 24-31 – PLAYOFF TEAM (probably)
    @ St. Louis W 36-17
    @ Minnesota L 23-30 – PLAYOFF TEAM
    Detroit W 26 -0
    @ Cleveland W 31-3
    Minnesota L 26-38 – PLAYOFF TEAM

    2008 first 7 games
    Minnesota W 24-19 – Playoff Team, NFC North Champs
    @ Detroit W 48-25
    Dallas L 17-27
    @ Tampa Bay L 21-30
    Atlanta L 24-27 – Playoff Team, NFC Wild Card
    @ Seattle W 27-17
    Indianapolis W 34-14 – Playoff Team, AFC Wild Card

    Through the first 7 games of 2008, the Packers played 3 teams who would eventually make the playoffs and were 2-1 in those games. In 2009, the Packers have played the Bengals who appear to be headed to the playoffs and the Vikings twice who will win the NFC North and possibly be the number one seed in the NFC. In those 3 games, the Packers are 0-3.

    We all know what happened in 2008 after the first 7 games – the Packers tanked and went 2-7 over the next 9 games and finished at 6-10. Isn’t it funny (well, it really isn’t funny as a Packers fan) how history and past performance can repeat itself. Now, here we are in 2009 and the Packers own a 4-3 record after the first 7 games just like in 2008. If history and past performance does repeat itself, I see the Packers winning only 3 of their next 9 games with victories over Tampa Bay (no gimme game), over Detroit on Thanksgiving (again, no gimme game), and over Seattle at Lambeau. I do not see the Packers beating Dallas, San Francisco, Baltimore, @ Chicago, @ Pittsburgh and @ Arizona.

    I pick the Packers to be 7-9 at the end of 2009. A one game improvement from last year is no improvement in my book. At least McCarthy will be gone at the end of year and I do not believe that A-Rod will last all season with our current O-Line.

    I, just like all of you who post here, want the Packers to succeed and do well each and every year, to be competitive, and be in the playoff hunt every season. Some may say that is just too much to ask. But after enduring the 70’s and 80’s when the Packers only made the playoffs twice (1972 and the 1982 strike shortened season), and then to go from that to the 1990’s and 2000’s when the Packers made the playoffs 11 of those years (1993, 1994, 1995, 1996, 1997, 1998, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004 and 2007), I do not think it is too much to ask at all.

    The ’09 Packers have not improved from the ’08 Packers, and that to me is very troubling! How about Ted getting some FA’s in to give some leadership to this team. Being the youngest team in the NFL is not working!

    You’re right Al, the current 2009 Packers are nonstop to nowhere. The train has left the station and we are left with a trip to nowhere!

  • 25 Yrs Pack

    Wow Jay, nice job breaking it down.

  • Mpwest42

    Welcome Back Al!

    The ’09 version of the Green Bay Packers is a football team that can be the most frustrating to fans, especially ones who have followed the team for years. It seems like we have been on the brink of greatness for the past couple seasons, but there are major flaws deep rooted in this football team…

    1. Offensive line
    2. Ryan Grant, not an elusive back, a number 2 on most teams (honestly)
    3. MM play calling
    4. Poor player development
    5. Poor player scouting
    6. Cant utilize the pro bowl quality we have (Kampman) I mean gee its week 9 figure something out for the guy
    7. No pressure on opposing QB, you give any NFL QB the time we give some and anybody will look like and MVP
    8. Cant win the big game
    9. One injury away from disaster, O-Line, DB, QB you name it were not deep
    10. Cant fix same old mistakes week in week out!

    Seems to me it’s obvious that the time is near for another change in GB, cause to me ending the season with anything less than a ring is considered a failure! Do you honestly think these are the men who can deliver that?

  • Jay

    25 yr Pack – thanks.

    Mpwest 42 – you are exactly right, it is time for another change in Green Bay. And to answer your question – NO – TT and MM are not the men who can deliver the Super Bowl trophy to it’s rightful place, Titletown USA, home of the Green Bay Packers.

  • Jay, you will get tons of response to your analysis, and rightfully so! Well done.
    The data is an eye opener that no way can be refuted. It would appear that MM is turning out to be another of those coordinators who cannot put the whole package together. Further, his play calling (I’ll yield to others on this, ’cause I’m not knowledgeable enough to know) does not indicate an ability to put a worthwhile game plan together. Evidence would be MIN in that this game was a carbon copy of the first as far as I’m concerned.
    I’ll be the first to admit I was totally fooled by the Pre in that I had the team way overrated. I don’t think the opponents had anything to do with it – whats missing now is that fire from the get-go that they showed. I do think the personnel is better (even with 3 FBs, turned out we needed them) since I think ’09 was a pretty good draft.
    I look at it as a personnel problem in that there do not seem to be any consequences for foolish and/or stupid play. Further, we implemented a new O scheme w/ nobody to teach it. I have no idea what was behind the Jaz thing, but we put out big bucks for Capers I’m sure.
    I still think talent is there to be a winner so I don’t come down on TT (yet!) but he had better kick MM in the ass. If press accounts are accurate (have no idea; don’t trust ’em) MM is starting to lose credibility w/ the players, and we all know where that leads. Players again playing to start rather than to win (saw that somewhere).
    I do know that if you don’t give it your all you get hurt. I wasn’t football, but the concept applies to any sport.
    Again, well done Jay, makes total sense!

  • Rocky70

    Per Admin:

    ” This year’s edition of the Green Bay Packers is headed nonstop to nowhere. ”

    Even Al has jumped ship along with the rest of you who ‘secrectly’ were never aboard to begin with……….. Ridiculous & naive at best……….

    GB will be 5-3 at the halfway point……. It’s not at all unusual for an NFL team to make a run starting at any given point in the season……….. GB will have to shore up problems areas to make a run but it’s hardly impossible……….

    Some of you need to turn in your ‘green & gold’ cards & follow the NHL if you think everything is so dire…………. Pathetic fans at best……………

  • 25 Yrs Pack

    hard to make a run…when you can’t run!

  • AATP

    If you haven’t seen this one yet… MM is the first interview…

  • AATP

    So if nothing else – the Packers will have experience in the Playoff atmosphere as they are saying the Packers/Vikings game were very similar to a Playoff type atmosphere with the media circus, etc. So I guess that’s a good thing in case we win enough to get there this season.

  • Michael Legat


    The problem I think most everyone now has is that this team has looked good enough for the last year and a half to make a run, and that run never happens. I wouldn’t say it’s one step forward and two steps back, but it’s definitely one step forward, one step back. I’ve seen it mentioned somewhere that the biggest problem with the 08 and 09 Packers is that 9 times out of 10, they’ve been in position to win big games, but instead of making the big play, they make the big mistake. Sure, this team is very capable of winning big, but something always gets in the way, and usually its the Packers getting in the way of themselves.

    Yes, we can still go on a run this year, but it’s highly disturbing that the same awful habits keep popping up on a constant basis.

    I’m probably one of the more even-keel and optimistic posters on the board, but it’s harder and harder to come down on those that doubt that the current powers that be can get it done here.

  • Before the season everyone was too optimistic. Now we’re too pessimistic. Unless #12 goes down this team can only get better. Our run defense is far better. Our guards and centers are better. If we can get Quinn Johnson on the field our rushing will improve. Finley is better and our specials are better(we were that bad and Harvin has done that to the best teams).
    Now, I’ve heard the negative stuff and I challenge everyone here to come up with something positive.
    If TT can hang on to our young core players that are up for contracts and get us some real help next year we should be in good shape but, as I tried to warn you, this year is going to be tough.

  • Jay

    25 Yrs Pack – that is exactly right, “hard to make a run…when you can’t run!”

    Rocky70 – first, I haven’t jumped ship and I am a green & gold card carrying member of Packer Nation. And I do not think that Al or anyone else who posts here has jumped ship either.

    There is nothing wrong with you being optimistic about the remainder of 2009. I do hope that this Packer team can make a run, get in the playoffs, and then, as we witnessed with the Cardinals last year, make a run to a championship.

    But I do not share your optimism. I just do not see where this Packers team has improved much from last year to make a run and get in the playoffs in ’09. The D may be a little better from ’08, but in my opinion, that is not saying much. I watched every game last year and I have watched the first 7 games of this year, and I just do not see much improvement, and in fact in some areas, such as the O-Line, it is much worse than ’08 (ex. 34 sacks allowed all of 2008; 31 sacks allowed thru first 7 games in 2009).

    Rocky, if the Packers can make a run, I will be the first to post on here how wrong I was about this team. That post would start with the following sentence, “THE VASTNESS OF MY WRONGNESS IS STAGGERING.” But until I see something different on the playing field, I will continue to believe and say that this team is no better or is in fact worse than the ’08 Packers squad.

    But just because I believe that and post those sentiments, that does not mean I have jumped the Packers ship. The Green Bay Packers are my team and will always be my team no matter what.

    I have jumped ship though – I have jumped off the TT & MM can deliver a Super Bowl trophy to Titletown ship.

  • Oddball

    Hey, Rocky. Watch me pull a rabbit outta my hat!

    The problem isn’t the quality of the fans. It’s the quality of the team. The fact is we’ve lost to the only real teams we’ve played this year. What don’t you get about that? That 5-3 you’re talking about will consist of wins over 4 teams with a present record of about 3-28 – for a combined winning percentage of something like .100

    Even so, I don’t see anybody calling for a midseason coaching change at the moment, so Coach Mike has this season to prove he can do something with what Ted Thompson has brought him. He deserves it, but it’s year four for him now – crunch time. Put up or shut up. I’ve already stated my criteria. Make it to 9-7. Show some pass rush. Run the ball. If her can’t do that at the end of four years, I think it’s time to move on.

    At some point, somebody said most GMs get to try a coaching change before being shown the door, and I think that makes sense. If Mike doesn’t get this ship straightened up, he deserves to leave at the end of the year, and we’ll be left with the hope that the problem really was the coaching and not the personnel.

    . . . and that somebody better than Mike McCarthy can be enticed to our fair city.

  • Oddball

    And by the way, Rocco . . . thptpt!!!

    *shows green and gold deathtongue*

  • Rocky70

    You can ‘spin’ 5-3 anyway you want…………. It’s still 5-3……….. With the final eight games to be played………..

    A) Qualify for the playoffs… B) Peak going into the playoffs…………… Nothing else matters…………… You can analyze until you disprove your own original hypothesis…… This is what happens when a team loses an emotional game……… The fans always over react……….

    @ Jay

    I don’t know your personal feelings & really don’t give a rat’s a$$ about your ‘great’ team fandom …………. When Al titles his blog “Nonstop To Nowhere”……. He is jumping ship……….. Believe me, I will call you out if/when the opportunity arises………….. if you’re still around.

  • 25 Yrs Pack

    You start a season the way we did, it creates a path with a direction. Now the direction is not to the playoffs. If your not going to the playoffs, your going nowhere. He is not jumpin ship, he is stating current facts the way they are. There is no sign in any of the games we played that the direction of the path we have been presented with so far leads anywhere but to nowhere. If you think our current path leades somewhere else, what the heck are you basing that on? My future telling devices are down right now, so if you could share the information your gathering from yours that would be much appreciated.

  • Mike from Arizona

    Everyone should read JAY’s post. Excellent…………….

  • Rocky70

    @ 25

    ” You start a season the way we did….” ……… You mean 5-3 at the halfway point?

    ” If your not going to the playoffs, your going nowhere. ”

    ……………… And you know this…. how? ……….. Seems like you’re the one with ‘future telling devices’…………… Please think abit longer before posting……. You’re becoming another PB………..

  • 25 Yrs Pack

    So your basing everything on being 5-3? I’d say thats the thinnest argument I have ever heard, but I can’t qaulify that as an argument.

  • Rocky, you know I’m with ya man. I agree 5-3 isn’t all that bad, and I don’t really think it matters who or where it was achieved.
    Having said that I am losing confidence in MM simply because I think TT has given him everything he has wanted. A top flight QB and backup(I still have’nt given up on Brohm), a half dozen quality WRs, OL guys that fit a running template (ie; bigger and supposedly stronger), good DL and LBs along wth a top DC.
    I’m a long way from giving up, but at the same time I’m starting to question if MM can do it.
    People talk a lot about this being a different age, etc. But there are coaches out there who still utilize some Lombardi diciplines and I think we need it badly.

  • Michael Legat

    Agree 110%, Larry.

  • Rocky70

    @ LT

    I don’t disagree with you………. The impetus has to be on the coaching staff……… All 53 Packers are NFL players but the coaching is still the key………. MM & his comrades need to learn & learn quickly….. However, 5-3 is not 2-6 or 1-7……..

    @ 25

    5-3 is the ONLY thing that matters at this point………… (I’m assuming GB trashes TB this Sunday) ……………… Then Dallas & SF come to Lambeau……….. What will you say if GB takes all 3 games? ……………… Will they then be ‘on a path to nowhere’ at 7-3?…………….. Winning 3 games in a row is not impossible especially when 2 are at GB & the 3rd is against a winless team……………..

    Try expanding your mind & exploring all possibilities………… It becomes a habit after you do it awhile…………. Of course, some are incapable.

  • Jay

    Rocky – I really don’t care what you think of my “great team fandom”. And besides, I was just using your words, “jump ship” and “green & gold card”.

    It is true, I normally do not post much of anything, but I will be here for a very long time. So anytime you want to call me out when the opportunity arises – I will still be around.

    Now, let’s talk Packer football instead of all this personal garbage. I, just like you, think that the Packers will be 5-3 at the halfway point. They should without a doubt beat Tampa Bay this Sunday (if they don’t, you will have to admit then that the 2009 season is over for the Packers, right, Rocky, you will admit that won’t you?). It is the remainder of the schedule after the Tampa Bay game that has me scratching my head trying to figure out where the Packers will get 5 to 6 more wins to be 10-6 and 11-5 to make the playoffs (that is the record it will probably take to get in).

    Here is my take of how the remaining 9 games of 2009 will pan out – please respond to where you think I am wrong on any of these games:

    @ Tampa Bay – Packers win and will be 5-3.

    vs. Dallas – I hate the Cowboys with a passion, but I see DeMarcus Ware draped all over Rodgers all day long and Romo and Austin Miles will hook up for a couple of long TD scores. 5-4.

    vs San Francisco – this will be a tougher game than most will think, but let’s say the Packers manage to squeak this one out, they move to 6-4.

    @ Detroit – on Thanksgiving Day, the Lions always play better than they are on Thanksgiving, but the Packers are able to win this one to go to 7-4.


    vs Baltimore – the Ravens D will be all over Rodgers, and the Packers will not be able to move the ball downfield to score all day. 7-5.

    @ Chicago – I think this game will be close, but Gould hits a last second field goal in overtime to beat the Packers just like in ’08. 7-6

    @ Pittsburgh – the Steelers will methodically move the ball on the Packers D and keep Rodgers and the offense on the sidelines most of the game. 7-7.


    vs Seattle – the Packers play the Seneca Wallace led Seahawks (Hasselbeck will be out with an injury by that time of the season) and the Packers win big as the D produces 4 turnovers in a route. 8-7.

    @ Arizona – the defending NFC Champs will be fighting to win the NFC West division. The Cardinals and the 49ers will be tied for first at 8-7, but if the Cardinals win, they are in. Packers make it close, but in the end, the Cardinals want it more. 8-8.

    I sure hope that these Packers prove me wrong – and then Rocky, you can call me out all you want. I sure hope that you are right about the Packers making a run. I just do not see it.

  • 25 Yrs Pack

    If GB takes all 3 games, I believe there is a new path, a .700 win pct is a different path than a .625. So yeah, the path would be playoffs. Your analzying ASSUMES we sweep the next 3 games. We haven’t done this since 2007.

  • 25 Yrs Pack

    Jay is on fire today.

  • Rocky70

    @ Jay

    Your attempts at predicting future events is futile……….. You have no basis whatsoever to call games weeks in advance….. You could be wrong on all……… I post this everytime someone ‘throws’ their crystal ball into the conversation……. It’s ridiculous……….

    BTW……….. You post very similar to an old member of this blog……….. MattH?

  • 25 Yrs Pack

    Wow, I just rasied another red flag for me. You really think a team that hasn’t put together 3 wins in a row in the last 24 games is a playoff contender? Assuming we make the wild card, you really think we can than put the 3 wins in a row together to take it?

  • 25 Yrs Pack

    Rocky is right about the last post, there was a lot of prophecies there, but matt h?

  • Reid

    The division title is a LONG shot so I say play Lang, Sitton, and Barbre the rest of the season and give them a chance to improve and prove themselves. The sack total certainly can’t get any worse. It looked like AR was kind of figuring out his scramble lanes in the 2nd half Sunday instead of sitting in the pocket waiting to get hit. He did a good job of slipping thru the creases and buying time to throw and then running if nothing developed.

    We certainly need to either develope a more consistent run game or throw a freaking screen pass. Geez, I never even played football and I know that if you can’t run, you have to be able to run a screen pass or you’re toast.

  • 25 Yrs Pack

    SI is blaming the Pack coaches as well. Making it a front page NFL story.

  • Mike from Arizona

    It all has to do with probabilities. 5-3 is great. But four win are against teams that are super sub-par. With the next 8 games, there is a high probability we will not win those games.

    Let see if MM can stop this team from beating themselves. Limiting penalities and get the turnover ratio higher would be a start.

    It also would be nice to bring back the screen pass, but we may not have the personnel to run it effectively.

  • Rocky70

    ” Rocky is right about the last post, there was a lot of prophecies there, but matt h? ”

    Give me time…………… If this is the case, I’ll prove it…………. (Coined words, sentence structure, vocabulary, etc.) …………. You’ll have to admit that Jay has the same futuristic prognostigating ability of MH……. Long posts………….. And the ever present ‘fire TT/MM now. attitude followed up by ………… ” I sure hope that these Packers prove me wrong. “……………… That’s straight from MHs method of posting…………… Ummmmmm……

  • 25, that SI is a must read.
    Gee, Rock, you might be right about Jay but the only similarity I see is length. this Dude makes a good case, big Hayton was all emotion trying to make a good case.

  • 25 Yrs Pack

    Try expanding your mind & exploring all possibilities………… It becomes a habit after you do it awhile…………. Of course, some are incapable.

    At first I took that as an insult, now I am eagerly waiting for the Jay’s rebuttal on the matt h accusations.

  • Jay

    Rocky – did you not read my last post – I said “here is my take” on the remaining 9 games. No trying to predict future events or prophecy – just “my take”.

    Besides, Rocky, haven’t you made some prophecy and crystal ball statements before.

    For example, you said on October 20th, 2009 at 8:32 pm
    “This is why the season is 16 games long………. The Pack D is destined to improve & probably be the impetus to a long winning streak……..Both the Pack & the Vikes will be 6-2 at the halfway mark…….”

    You said on October 21st, 2009 at 3:42 pm
    “Although it’s early, GB has a top ten offense to go with their top-ten defense….. If they can maintain their rankings, a playoff spot is assured….. I’m still going with 6-2 at the half-way point………”

    You said on October 30th, 2009 at 10:51 pm:
    “……. I’m sticking to GB being 6-2 at the halfway mark ………. It would be great to be 6-2 when the Cowboys come to town in two weeks”.

    You said on October 27th, 2009 at 4:00 pm
    “I still like both the Pack & the Vikes at 6-2 at the half way point……….”

    You cannot have it both ways man. I can say that your posts with these comments are ridiculous, prophecy, crystal ball thinking, predicting future events, blah, blah, blah. But I will not say that. I will just say that you are Packer fan who wants the Pack to win. So do I. I just don’t see it that way for the rest of year. This team is just not good enough and not well coached enough.

    BTW – who is matt h? This is not him. My name is Jay.

  • Michael Legat

    No, it’s impossible that there are two different people out there capable of writing lengthy posts about how disappointing this team has been.


  • 25 Yrs Pack

    What is impossible is for somebody who’s name is Jay, to be named matt h. If it was matt h, his name wouldn’t be Jay……

  • Jay

    Rocky said – “Give me time…………… If this is the case, I’ll prove it…………. (Coined words, sentence structure, vocabulary, etc.) …………. You’ll have to admit that Jay has the same futuristic prognostigating ability of MH……. Long posts………….. And the ever present ‘fire TT/MM now. attitude followed up by ………… ” I sure hope that these Packers prove me wrong. “……………… That’s straight from MHs method of posting…………… Ummmmmm……”

    First, as I said in an earlier post to Rocky, my futuristic prognosticating ability is just my take on the rest of the season, nothing more, nothing less. My long posts – I guess I just have a lot to say. Where in any of my posts are these ever present “fire TT/MM now”. The only thing I have said about TT was that he needs to get some FA’s to give some leadership to this team and the only thing that I said about MM was that he would be gone at the end of the year after my prediction of a 7-9 season. And yes, he should be fired if the Packers finish 7-9.

    And yes, I do hope that these Packers prove me wrong because I want them to win. But I do not see how they can with what I have witnessed in the first 7 games.

    Anyway, go ahead and try to prove that I am this matt h guy. Good luck with proving that – that will go down in flames much like your “the Packers will be 6-2 at the halfway point” statement.

  • roy jamison

    Al I want to add my thanks to you for keepin’ on keepin’ on. You have provided a place where we can agree to agree or disagree and I’m very thankful to you for that and will be in my prayers on Thanksgiving Day too!
    As for your analysis, unfortunately I agree with you. Our O-line sucks and really what do we have in the pipeline when Clifton and Tauscher finally can’t reach the ground anymore? I know I sound like a Roy Rogers rerun, but to me it’s like the Brewers starting pitching staff…non-existent. And, it’s not surprising A-Rod is hobbling around with that lack of protection. Yeah, he might have been able to get rid of a couple of balls quicker, but then that would mean only 4 sacks instead of 6.

  • Jay

    Ooops! I forgot, I also said this about TT & MM:

    “I have jumped ship though – I have jumped off the TT & MM can deliver a Super Bowl trophy to Titletown ship.”

    Sorry, if I said it, I will own up to it. If you want to say this is a ever present “fire TT/MM now” statement, so be it.

  • Jay

    Now, let’s talk Packers football. I heard yesterday that Edgerrin James was released in Seattle. Do you think he is all washed up or could he help the Packers struggling ground game?

  • Oddball

    “You can ’spin’ 5-3 anyway you want…………. It’s still 5-3……….. With the final eight games to be played………..

    A) Qualify for the playoffs… B) Peak going into the playoffs…………… Nothing else matters…………… ”

    What is involved in “peaking” if not beating quality opposition through solid play? I’m not particularly impressed by teams wiping up the slop. Honestly, from a competitive point of view, I think it contributes to a certain amount of complacency. To that end, I’m actually happier (in a twisted way) about the Vikings game than I was about the Browns game.

    We were down. We came back hard. Just couldn’t make that last leap. That tells you something about a team that an easy win just doesn’t. Playing quality opposition makes you better by forcing you to play above what you perceive as your limits. Playing inferior teams can make you overconfident and lazy if the coaching isn’t superior.

    To extend the argument to it’s silliest possible end – 5-3 having beaten NO, NE, PIT, DEN and IND would look a lot different from 5-3 having beaten DET, STL, CLV, TB and CHI. Who do you think would get longer SB odds in Vegas?

    My personal opinion is that the strength of your opposition in combination with your record tells you more about where a team is going than the record alone. That’s why I think what I thought when I wrote what I wrought.

  • 25 Yrs Pack

    I think before we looka t edge, we try giving Green 20 carries, and 2 screen opportunites. If they belive he has enough ball security and speed to return kicks, hand him the damn ball and see what happens.

  • I haven’t jump ship. I’m just losing faith in the coach. When he says he didn’t pull Jolly because it would hurt the defense, well what the hell do you think giving up 15 yards after a great third-down stop does? Goes back to no discipline on this team. I remember when Edgar Bennett fumbled once under Holmgren. Bennett didn’t see the field for 8 weeks.

  • Rocky70

    @ Jay

    Keep posting…………… I need a larger sample size………… My predictions are Pro-Packer………… Yours are not…………… Big difference…………..

    You’ve made a half dozen posts this year……… most in the last 24 hours………… I find it difficult to believe that you never, ever had the urge to join in before today………. I mean, we’ve had some very diverse & spirited back & forth regarding TT/MM & the state of the Packers over the last 6-8 months but yet you have been content to just read without any comments……………… until now……………

  • 25 Yrs Pack

    Wow there was so much 5-3 talk, I forgot that we are 4-3.

  • roy jamison

    Al, you are back on fire! What are your thoughts on Kampman’s misuse?

  • Rocky70

    This is Jay’s very 1st post.

    Jay Says:
    September 27th, 2009 at 2:15 pm
    Al, I have never commented before, but I have followed for a very long time.

    Jay says today:

    ” Anyway, go ahead and try to prove that I am this matt h guy. ”
    ” BTW – who is matt h? This is not him. My name is Jay. ”

    Sorry Jay…………. If your very 1st post is true, then you can’t help but know who Matt H is…………….. It is absolutely impossible to have followed PackerNet “for a very long time” without knowing the posts of MH………………

  • 25 Yrs Pack

    Looks like an open and shut case

  • I’m confused, why would someone post above a blog name other than their own or have more than one. I mean I can see using a made up name like LarryTex, but I don’t understand why I would wan’t to post as “George” as well.

  • 25 Yrs Pack

    Why would you draft justin harrel? These are questions that nobody has logical answers to, but these things do happen.

  • jonnyfootballhero

    OK, reading between the lines here, but I still don’t understand why some consider those who don’t constantly shout out pro-packer statements as not being real fans? It is ridiculous to constantly see through green and gold tinted glasses when this team is obviously not getting it done in its current state, whether it be management, coaching, or playing. As fans, we have the right to point out the consistent mistakes this team makes and the lack of urgency to get them fixed. If that means a new coach, GM, or players so be it. Just because we don’t like the state of the team or the direction we see it going, doesn’t mean we aern’t real fans. We want to see constant improvement and when that isn’t happening, we want people here who will. I don’t know who those people are, thats what Murphy’s job is. The record stands at 4-3 right now with only one quality win. I want to see dominant wins against quality teams, not just against the cupcakes. I love the Green Bay Packers and want to see teams that were like the teams of the 90’s. It’s not too much to ask for. The Packers need the right guys to put that together and to me it doesn’t seem like that have those guys yet.

  • Jay

    Rocky – believe whatever you want about who I am. I posted some of my takes today on the Packers and you want to call me out because you say you are “pro-packers” and that I am not “pro-packers”. I am just calling it like I see it.

    I am sure that I have read “matt h’s” posts before, but they must have not made a big impact on me. I have been following packernet since 2001 and I began going to packernet because Al would put “The Fan” audio broadcasts on his sites. At the time, “The Fan” in Green Bay did not have live internet streaming and that was the only way for me to listen since I live in Texas. “The Fan” now provides live internet streaming of “Fan Line” and “Sports Line” with Chris and Harry.

    So what if all of a sudden I decide to post some of my thoughts on the Packers. I have posted before way back when, just not much, so would not remember me. But you have given me a new challenge, and I think I will become a permanent poster. Thank you for the new challenge.

  • jonnyfootballhero

    – “I’m confused, why would someone post above a blog name other than their own or have more than one. I mean I can see using a made up name like LarryTex, but I don’t understand why I would wan’t to post as “George” as well.”

    Last week I got accused of being Sammy – I couldn’t figure that out either. What is the point of posting as someone else? I’m not afraid to say what I think as my own name. It’s a dumb accusation and a stupid thing to bitch about. Who cares???

  • Jay

    jonnyfootballhero – thank you for your post.

  • 25 Yrs Pack

    I’ve been accused of being a queens fan, on more than one occasion i believe, just gotta roll with the punches

  • Jay

    Do any of you guys go to Packer Chatters (

    This is a great Packers website, with some great articles. Below are some of the articles currently on their site:

    Ted Was Wrong, Right?

    At 4-3, How’s the 3-4 Looking?

    Mike McCarthy’s Seat Becoming Hotter By The Loss

    A Model of Success (this is a great read)

    Did Rodgers Outplay Favre?

    Go check it out, this is a good Packers site.

  • Rudy Bayron

    100% with you GO PACK

  • Pack4life

    I would like to thank Jay for his insightful information. TT finally made some bold moves this past draft. The problem is he had too many holes to fill. He knew he needed impact players on Defense for the new scheme and O-line help.
    This is why Free Agency is so critical. TT went bargain basement so long on the Oline, went from being respectable to an absolute joke.
    The the Packers will have to take 2 lineman no matter where they end up.

    MM is a broken record. “Well clean that up”, “it has been addressed.” “Babre is improving” the same baseless drivel every week. The running game is an open sore, I am waiting for Noah Herron to come in and fix it. MM has already lost Jenkins and Woodson veterans who can back up their words.

    I hate to say it but bring in Jon Gruden. He could fix everything that ails this offense.
    He adjusts to the game situation. He will bench players that dont perform. Gruden is a grade A Ahole but he gets the job done. Winning a SB with BRad Johnson is no small feat. MM I am sure is a nice guy. Nice guys finish last.

  • OK, were 4-3 heading to 5-3 and quality this and quality that. Subjective at best.
    TT built this team in any case. MM is managing this team on the field. These are facts. As an aid in evaluating either’s performance take a simple test.
    Just go down the roster and put a + or a – by each name as to whether you want them on your team or not. No comparison to any player on any other team because they are not here.
    If you have more +s than -s you probably like the team and visa versa. You might be surprised. If you have a predominant number of +s you can probably lay this mess on MMs doorstep. The only leeway you could give the coach is if you have a lot of unproven 1st or 2nd year guys. Kind of like comparing Matthews and Harrell, right?
    I don’t think anyone would give Kampman a minus, but whats he done this year?
    Crosby misses a 52 yarder, can’t kick. MM made a dumb call. Who do you blame? At 52 its not a gimme; MM was called out because of weather conditions (?). Huh?

  • Pack4life

    MM is comming to the point of put up or shut up. I wish Gruden, Shanahan or Holmgren would take over midseason. Wishful thinking. Seeing the look on MM’s face after Jolly’s penalty told me all I ever want to know about MM. He is a coward plain and simple a message needed to be sent to the team and MM did nothing. Bench Jolly a series or 2 is not going to hurt anything Raji needs the reps anyway. I believe the saying goes when good men do nothing the face of crisis it makes cowards of us all

  • Michael Legat

    There have been only two games in the last two years where the Packers weren’t within one score in the fourth quarter. If we didn’t have the talent, this would certainly not be the case. The multi-million dollar question is, why can’t these players execute enough to turn all of these close losses into wins. The next nine weeks will determine if McCarthy can establish himself as a successful head coach. I absolutely believe the talent is there for a 10-6 final record, and unlike Al, I do believe that that will be enough to get a #5 or #6 seed. Outside of catastrophic injuries, anything short of that, in my opinion, falls entirely on the doorstep of MM.

  • 25 Yrs Pack

    I’d be fine with throwing any injuries on his doorstep.

  • Michael Legat

    Or a flaming bag of dog droppings? Maybe that’s too far.

  • Rocky70


    A little optimism mixed in the doom & gloom?…………… To be in step here, you need to mention who you would like as the next HC………. Or cite futuristic predictions to claim an 8-8 season…………… Now Al has also gone to the ‘dark side’ ………. Just what the doctor ordered ……………. A PackFan Blogger who blogs … ” Who knows with a little luck they might pull it off in 27 or 28 years. ”

    I’ll rest (as I’ve said before) if/when GB loses their 7th of the season……….. But I don’t need nor will I continue to read the BS posted on this site……. I can go to Bear & Viking blogs to find this crap………………

  • Sammy

    Al, I too love the site. Other blog sites just have too many people/posts to actually interact. So please keep it up.

    HOWEVER, after seeing all of the attention you received by “retiring”, it kind of reminds me of a future Hall of Fame diva quarterback. Did you learn how to get the fans mad from HIM!

    Just joking with you. I defend you as being a fan which is short for fanatic = kind of crazy.

  • Sammy

    O.k. Rocky,

    The Pack are great, Rodgers is a Hall of Famer, TT/MM….best combo in NFL history… that optimism you want?

  • Jay

    Rocky said – “I’ll rest (as I’ve said before) if/when GB loses their 7th of the season……….. But I don’t need nor will I continue to read the BS posted on this site……. I can go to Bear & Viking blogs to find this crap………………”

    Rocky – don’t you dare quit reading or posting on All of us are Packer fans here, but we all just do not see eye to eye on everything. Come on, man up, and let’s discuss the greatest team of all time in the NFL – THE GREEN BAY PACKERS!

    I still do not understand why you called me out on everything I posted, but that is okay. We will just agree to disagree.

  • Jay

    I know it is kinda of early on this, but assuming the Packers defeat the Bucs, what are the Packers chances against Dallas?

    Here are my keys to the Dallas game:

    1) Protection, Protection, Protection – the Packers must protect A-Rod, or DeMarcus Ware will have 7 sacks all be himself.

    2) Cover Austin Miles – this kid has been going off the last several weeks and his yac (yards after the catch) is incredible.

    3) Stop the run of the Dallas 3 headed RB beast. The Cowboys have Barber, Choice and Jones. Oh if only the Packers could have one of these guys. Barber is just that, a beast, Choice is a Emmit Smith clone, and if Jones gets into the secondary, he is as good as gone.

    If Philly beats Dallas on Sunday and the Pack beats Tampa Bay, both Dallas and Green Bay will be sitting at 5-3. Could be another huge game in 2 weeks at Lambeau with wild card implications.

    Do I see Green Bay winning this game – I will be honest – no. But if somehow, someway the Packers can get past the Cowboys, then anything can happen.

    I sure hope that Rocky see’s that I am trying to be as optimistic as I can.

  • Oddball

    C’mon, Rock. There are now 85 posts on this blog and not a few of them are responding to you. Put yer butt back on yer barstool and let somebody fill yer hand. Metaphorically speaking of course.

    Yeah, I have my doubts, but I also don’t recall anybody being so optimistic as me when I said I think every game but the one at PIT is a serious potential win. This team has proven they can play with the better teams (I’m not sure about the elite teams just yet), they just have clean it up and effin’ finish it.

    Win the next two, and I think 10-6 is a real possibility.

  • ronp

    I believe like most of of you that I did not expect this team to make it to the super bowl. I however did expect this team to make the playoffs. After looking at the latest rankings by a Vegas lines maker it puts the Pack at 12th. I would agree on some days and disagree others. Either way this team is good but not great. Hopefully this team can gel as the season progresses. Things I’d like to see:
    1) Special Teams play better
    2) Ryan Grant to run with passion (show him the 2007 Denver Donkey game)
    3) Rodgers to make quicker decisions. His sacks are like Brents Int’s in 1993…just through the ball away every now and then
    4) Stop the penalties please!

  • rasok

    I think everyone’s too pessimistic. Last season most of the losses were by a score or less. This season the games we’ve lost (all to good teams) have all finished closely: nobody have destroyed the Pack and they certainly haven’t rolled over and died. There’s clear spirit in these young players and a determination to succeed.
    Each loss has been the result of a couple of big plays by the opposition and/or errors on both sides of the ball, particularly stupid penalties which either prolong their drives or curtail ours.
    The offensive line is obviously a big weakness and one which, I feel, can’t be cured without the addition of two or three impact players (high draft picks and free agents). The current band may improve enough to get us through games against teams without dominating defences but sooner or later Aaron Rogers is going to get hurt. He just can’t go on taking that many hits. Maybe when he’s out of action, people will realise just what an asset he’s been, despite having to play behind that useless o-line.
    There’s no point in discussing the lack of screen plays and play-action passes if you can’t get the basics of pass protection and run blocking right. No defence is going to be sold play-action when they know you can’t run the ball effectively!
    But England seems a long way from Wisconsin at the moment, so what do I knoiw about it?

  • Oddball

    Rasok –

    Given the lack of a run game and our bargain basement line (mostly 3rd and 4th rounders) I think Rodgers has looked outstanding. If I have a criticism, it’s that he seems to try too hard to extend the play and takes a lot of additional hits when he should probably just bail out. At least two sacks last week came when he was way outside the box.

    I would agree that play action is something of a joke right now, but a decent screen game could really help slow that rush down.

  • rasok, your second paragraph says it all. But between the lines therein lies the lack of consistancy. I’ve felt TT has been bringing in the talent for the WC offense (ie, Arod and fab(5), but we lack that “Roger Craig” type in the backfield.

    I really like our front three (5) on defense and think the LBs OK (sans Kampy-out of sync). Two good corners for a few more years w/backup and excellent safeties.

    All in all a pretty good team that can only get better – BUT – I can’t play the injury card anymore. And, I sure expected a lot more out of the specials with all those LBs and FBs.

    In sum, if we don’t start coming out of the tunnel like we did in the Pre, I know who I’ll blame. Thought we had it last Sun, especially on D, but the O in the first half was nowhere. Then in the second half the O gets sparked and the D gives up the big play and we out kick the coverage. Boom! Back to your second paragraph-the problem and the answer all wrapped up in one package.

  • Jay

    Do any you think that TT should have traded for a RB like Steven Jackson of the Rams instead of signing Ahman Green? Should TT now pursue Edgerrin James who was just let go by the Seahawks? Many Seahawk fans are saying that E. James was just not given much of a chance in Seattle and that they will not be surprised when he signs with a team and does well.

    Here is what I don’t get when it comes to our running game – how in the world do the Cowboys have all 3 of these RB’s in Marion Barber, Tashard Choice and Felix Jones? Anyone of those Cowboy RB’s are better than any of the RB’s on the Packers roster. Or, does it just come down to the O-Line? Is the zone blocking scheme a big part of the problem in the Packers running game? Or is the problem poor draft choices in both area’s, O-Line and RB’s.

    With regard to Kampman, I believe he is out of sync because he is playing in the wrong system. The 3-4 does not fit his style of play. Some have said the Packers should have traded him because he does not fit the 3-4 and gone after a quality RB.

    I truly believe that a lot, not all, but a lot of the Packers offensive problems is the result of a non-existent running game. Yes, Grant gained 140 yards on the ground against the Brownies, but what did he really do in the other 6 games? If you can’t run the ball, then opposing D’s can tee off on the QB, and they have to the tune of 31 sacks in 7 games. Yes, the O-Line of the Packers has problems, but I believe that a good RB would help the passing game, would reduce the number of sacks, and would help not put so much pressure on the O-Line. A good ground attack would keep defense’s honest.

    I love Ahman Green and for the many great years he gave to the Packers, but his he really the answer to help the Packers ground game? No, I don’t think so. The Packers either should have either traded for a quality RB or should have signed a quality FA (they did in A. Green, but I said a quality FA).

    The Packers have 9 games remaining on their schedule. If the running game does not get going, this team is headed nowhere.

  • Devil’s Advocate…

    Every year, some teams come in to the half way point at 7-1, 6-2 and every year one of them crashes. There’s alot of football left to be played.

    We were down a starting LE, C, and TE to their DB. Should we play the Vikes again w/everyone healthy, we’d gain on that deal.

    MM’s play calling is shit and his coaching isn’t much better. He needs to take jujitsu classes. I believe that’s where they use the opponents moves and momentum against themselves. Football is about more than X’s and O’s anymore.

    Officiating was at least so-so. Seen Vikings player with two hands full of jersey after Jenkins was past him and read about an uncalled helmet spear into AR’s back. Vikings are a dirty team…….

    Can’t give up yet….. there’s a long ways to go. This team is young and has room to get better. It’ll be how they’re playing in December that’ll count.

  • Oddball


    In my amatuer opinion, running the ball is about O-line dominance, and that is a system full of gears. Game planning, play calling, audibles, blocking fundementals, game adjustments, mental discipline, conditioning, deception, motivation, teamwork and probably a dozen more things I’m too deadened with Nyquil to think about right now. You have to dictate the game to the defense. Make them react to you. That puts a lot of the burden on the coaching staff.

    But on the field, it comes down to beating your man. Sometimes two of them. And we’re just not getting that done very often. Holes are collapsing. We’re not getting a seal on the end when we try to go wide. Linemen and lead backs are getting stuffed in the hole.

    I’ll echo what I know I’ve heard LarryTex say in the past – you have to have a group identity on the O-line. They’re not a bag of interchangeable parts. We’ve spent way too much time horsing around with the lineup – choose your best 5 and go with it. Get the line right, and I think Grant can get it done. (For that matter, Green and James as well) If we happen to find a young stud RB somewhere too, so much the better.

  • In that vein, Oddball, I’m torn between starting Lang and Barbre or Clifton and Tauscher against the Bucs. If this game is as easy as most seem to think wouldn’t we be better off in the long run with the kids? If you’re going to finish the season with Cliffy and Tausch as starters, go for broke to the playoffs, while delaying the kids’ development then sobeit. For me a tough choice.

  • Pack4life

    If the Pack is going to rest someone let it be Rodgers. The Bucs went three quarters without a 1st down against Buffalo. Just let that sink in. Get Ahman some reps this game. Let Flynn get some quality work. I was planning to attend this game but I am too disgusted with the status quo. Go Pack.

  • Oddball

    I think Lang gets to prove whether he’s it or not. He should get the start. Is Barbre our RT or not? If he’s not, bench him in favor of Tauscher and replace him next year.

    If Barbre is our RT . . .

    I don’t see anything wrong with telling Clifton and Tauscher that they are critical backups, but we’re starting the young bucks. I’m sure they both want to play, but they could probably use the development time. Clifton to rest and recover. Tausch to get back up to speed.

    If this team does catch a hot streak and we end up going deep, having those bookend veteran tackles in our hip pocket sounds like an outstanding insurance policy – especially if they’re totally fresh.

  • 31 sacks in 7 games and you want to let the young guys learn on the fly while your franchise QB gets killed? If healthy Cliffy and Tausch need to be in the lineup. Geez, McCarthy’s “we’re going to do what we always do” is rubbing off on people now. I guess if you hear it enough times, it’s like “Caaa..stanza”

  • You’re right, Al, but aren’t at least a third of those on Arod? These kids have got to learn each other under game conditions. Hey, lets settle for a quick hook, so Campen can show either a ” just taken” photo pointing out their/his mistake. Are they practicing those escape lanes that Arod goes to? If not, why can’t he feel the heat? I can’t believe he’s being pulled down this much, regardless of whats in front of him, after all these starts under his belt.

  • Mike from Arizona

    Read this article: It’s the Truth: Favre’s proving Thompson wrong.

    I do not agree with the MVP status of Favre this year. This article speaks volumes of TT chances with or without Farve to make this team better. All the salary cap money TT has had to work with.

    If you are going to rely on the draft then you better have Coaches who can teach. I do not believe we have this in our OL or Special Teams as an example.

  • 25 Yrs Pack

    Man, like i kept telling everyone, if we dont beat brett, all of us Wi folks bashing him like like idiots, the rest of the country now thinks any backing of TT is a sign of idiocracy. This is pretty much how everyone is starting to feel around the country, except 60% of Pack fans.'s-the-Truth:-Favre's-proving-Thompson-wrong

  • 25 Yrs Pack

    this is why I felt the queens games were beyond improtant, they were not, nor were the ever regualr season games, now this will hang in NFl hisroty forever

  • 25 Yrs Pack

    wow, my screen wasnt refreshed, didnt see the post right before, crappy work computer

  • Jason Whitlock is another Favre ass-kisser. He’s a complete joke in my book. Read some of his other stuff and tell me different. All he likes to do is stir the pot. The only thing in that article that is the truth is Favre wanted out of Green Bay. When the biggest Favre ass-kicker got fired, Mike Sherman that is, Favre was for all intents and purposes done in Green Bay. So he staged the big retirement ceremony and set the Packers up. What a big baby he turned out to be, and I don’t care if Favre does win the Super Bowl this year. Why would I? But odds are slim of that happening anyway, Favre couldn’t win a big playoff game if his life depended on it. Not without Holmgren on the sidelines.

  • 25 Yrs Pack

    Doesn’t matter what is the truth, national media has never cared about the truth. I don’t beleive Whitlock was always an ass kisser, i thought he posted articles that said the oppostie about a year ago, I have no memory though, so could easily be mistaken. Problem is I only watch ESPN and football related shows as my regular programming, until bf throws some big games away, this is what we have to deal with.

  • Yep, it is never going to go away. When you make a deal with the devil there is a stiff price to pay.

  • Jay

    Mike – “It’s the Truth: Favre’s Proving Thompson Wrong” is a great read.

    I have to agree – I believe that Ted made the wrong decision, when it comes to Brent, for the NOW. But not for the FUTURE. Rodgers is the future QB for the Packers – but he will not be the QB for the future if he is sacked another 31 times in the remaining 9 games. How in the world you do not have a decent O-Line to protect your future QB, that you drafted for to be the future franchise QB, is beyond me.

    Here is my conflict with Ted’s decision; the NFL is a win NOW short-term league, not a win in 3 to 4 years long-term league. The long-term attitude leads to GM’s and coaches getting fired, leads to fans being frustrated with the team and leads to fans calling for heads to roll, which I am definitely guilty of. TT, at least in the short-term, was wrong about Old-Whats-His-Name. That’s what makes this so difficult to figure out. Yes, we got burned by #4, but what about 2010? 2011? Rodgers may be 0-2 against the Old Man, but he has also learned a lot in a season and a half as the starter – but what is that worth in the long-term? Again, none of that will matter one bit if he keeps taking 10 sacks a game.

    I am not saying that the Packers would have a better record right now with Brent at QB, but what if Thompson had tried to surround Brent with the talent he wanted – for instance Randy Moss at WR, Tony Gonzalez at TE and had hired Mariucci as head coach instead of McCarthy (these are all things that Brent wanted). Would the Packers be better NOW or worse NOW?

    Also, the special teams are killing this team. Remember when the Packers went to back to back Super Bowls in ’96 & ’97. One of the big reasons was special teams. Who could forget the huge returns by Desmond Howard in the playoffs and the SB?

    Watching Crosby kickoff to the 10 and consistently miss big kicks (I am not saying a 51 yd FG is easy, but in that situation you gotta make that kick) has got to be at least as draining for his teammates as it has been for us.

    Special teams have just been rotten during the McCarthy era. If it’s not an old Ahman Green tripping over the 15 yd line and consistently showing no shiftiness and speed running back kicks, it’s the penalties and the poor blocking. Almost every game McCarthy heads out to coach, our team gets beaten on special teams, and I’m sick of it. Just look at the average starting field position this past Sunday. Not even close. Even after the team fought back and closed the scoring gap with Spencer Havner’s second TD of the game, lightening return man Percy Harvin quieted the crowd with a dagger run deep into Packers territory at the end of the third. Special teams can swing momentum like that, and McCarthy’s teams usually lose momentum rather than gain it.

    I feel like the Packers might be just good enough to lose to the best teams and might be able to challenge for a wild card spot but not challenge for a championship NOW. In the end, Brent made the better decision but, with an offensive line like the Queens have (vs. the Packer questionable pass rush) I think a lot of QB’s would look great. I still look forward to someone getting to Brent early in a game to see if he still reacts like he used to when he was with the Packers. It makes me sick that Brent looks this good with the Vikings and that he never looked this good with the Packers.

    As the greatest coach ever, Vincent T. Lombardi, once said, “WHAT THE HELL IS GOING ON OUT THERE!”

  • Oddball

    Hold on, gents. This is what we expected, right? I mean, if you’re backing Ted. The Queens threw a ton of money around and mortgaged their future for a chance at something now. (What Favre apparantly wanted)

    Ted’s plan is clearly very different with a different end game in mind.

    If you believe in that plan, you have to accept that, at least in the short term, Minnesota is probably going to get a bump from all those acquisitions while we’re going to show steady progress towards a deep and talanted team that can be sustained over the course of years. (I’m not entirely sold on Ted and Mike’s ability to pull this off, but that’s supposed to be the plan.)

    The good news is that, even with all those expensive people, they still needed a lights out performance by Favre and a few screwups from us to win. Can you tell how scrambled I am about us this year? The O-line sucks. Play ’em anyway! Ted Thompson can’t draft O-line, D-line or linebacker! Hey, I know we can beat everybody but Pittsburgh.

    I don’t know what to think of our guys. We show well enough to be optimistic, but dah-um. Sometimes they just look like “Night of the Living Dead” out there. I’m betting that Harvin touchdown is going to haunt us through the graces of NFL films.

  • 25 Yrs Pack

    Redskins have been trying to buy a championship….

  • Jay

    25 Yrs Pack – good point, the Deadskins have been trying to buy a championship with high priced FA’s with Synder throwing around money like crazy. But they do not have a franchise QB to get them to a championship. Campbell is servicable, but will never be a great QB IMO. This is only Rodgers 2nd year as a starter, but I would take Rodgers over Campbell any day to win a championship.

    So with the Deadskins, does it come down to poor coaching? Do they have the talent to win, but the coaching is awful? Do the Packers have the talent to win, but the coaching is awful?

    Oddball – I know that every NFL team has to go through some rebuilding through the draft and developing players, but going from 13-3 in 2007 on the cusp of playing in the SB (thanks Brent for that wounded duck your threw for an INT) to 6-10 in 2008 (Packers were in every game in 2008 except for the New Orleans game), to 4-3 in 2009 and not yet defeating a team with a winning record, should not the Packers be better by now? I know that the jury is still out on Ted’s long-term plan, but how long will that plan take to get the Super Bowl trophy back to it’s rightful place, Titletown USA.

  • Jay

    BREAKING NEWS: (this has nothing to do with the Packers or football)

    At Least 7 Dead, 20 Wounded in Shooting at Ft. Hood in Texas

    Thursday, November 05, 2009

    DEVELOPING: A mass shooting at Ft. Hood military base in Texas has left at least 7 dead and 20 wounded, officials confirmed. There were three shooters in the Army base massacre and one suspect is in custody. The attack apparently happened at the base’s Soldier Readiness Center. Army officials didn’t know whether the victims were civilians or military personnel. The men were dressed in Army fatigues, but military officials couldn’t confirm that they were Army personnel.

    Please pray for the families of those who were killed and wounded in this terrible shooting and pray for the safety of the remaining soldiers at Ft. Hood in Killeen, Texas.

  • Oddball

    Understood, Jay. I don’t think they can really expect to be given 7-10 years to complete this project.

  • Oddball

    My apolgies. I hadn’t seen the Ft Hood news when I posted my last.

  • packer_bob

    Haven’t had time to hear much about it, but all prayers to the victim’s of the shooting and all condolences to their families. Things like this are so tragic and just make you wonder “Why?”

    My wife works at Northern Illinois University where a loose canon shooter killed a bunch of kids on campus a couple of years back for reasons no one understands to this day. Horrible.

  • packer_bob

    Back to football, haven’t been on since yesterday morning but there’s been a whole lot of talking since then!

    Welcome to Jay, some interesting stats you posted on the difference between the 2008 and 2009 season to this point. Naturally you can’t point things like that out around here without having your fandom called into question, or being accused of actually being someone else posting in disguise. But obviously if you’ve been around the site this long, you knew that already. Anyways, welcome!

    As far as “buying a championship”, I don’t think anyone here wants or is advocating that TT spend money like a drunken sailor ala Daniel Snyder. But several of us have been of the opinion that TT’s rigidly parsimonious approach to FA since his arrival has cost us some opportunities. Surely there has to be a middle ground. Just like TT clearly changed his approach to the draft this season, if we slide down the stretch I wouldn’t be surprised to see a different approach to FA in this next offseason.

    Somebody remarked that a GM doesn’t get canned without getting an opportunity to change the head coach. Hasn’t TT already done that? He fired Sherman—MM is clearly his man. So for those of you that think MM is the problem, who made that decision? Seems to me if MM was a poor decision, that should reflect on TT. Personally I look at it as a package deal, either they both stay or they both go but we’ll see it how it shakes out. Alot will depend on the stretch of games following this next one until about mid-December.

  • packer_bob

    Thanks for the Whitlock link, 25YP. I don’t read him that often, and when I have he has seemed a little like a verbal bomb thrower, just trying to shake up the establishment.

    Having said that, he has expressed in that column what so many of us thought at the time and think to this day. I had friends in this area tell me Favre was getting washed up in 2004, and I said then I haven’t seen the decline in the skills. 2007 proved he could still play at an MVP level, and here we are in 2009 still watching it. And may be for another year or two.

    Anyway, you pays your money and you takes your chances. TT cast his lot from the moment he got here with rebuilding, and it will either work out or it won’t. Time will tell. Thanks again for the link, good read.

  • Jeff

    An interesting day in Packer history.
    20 years ago today the Packers beat the Bears 14-13 in what the Bears to this day still call the instant replay game , Packer fans call it MAJIKal.

  • Was reading the Silverstein article re Havner, Lee, and Finley lining up in multiple formations. Then thought about the OL where we have OGs playing OT, OGs playing C and the reverse. All these multiple assignments and positions – no wonder they’re confused.
    Reminded me of St Vincents “I don’t care if they do know what we’re doing, if everybody does their job they can’t stop us.” (sic)
    Multiple position assignments and roster flexibility – another concept I bought into two years ago but has proved me wrong.

  • And 20 years later the Bears STILL suck! What a day that was. My favorite moment was Majik raising his arms in victory. It’s etched in Packers’ lore.

  • Pack4life

    I think the biggest error on TT’s Resume is hiring MM over Sean Payton. We can debate all the over moves no GM is going hit on every pick but that decision is looking worse every week.

  • Whoa, Pack4, you’re hindsight is clouding your vision.
    While I have to agree MM did not have much of a resume when TT hired him either did Payton. He flopped as OC for the NYG and ran to the DAL before he got fired. His NO ’06 team went 10-6 and followed that with 7-9. ’08 was 8-8.
    As an aside, BUC are kinda like MIN in that they have 25% tied up in FA starter salaries. Only thing is they’re 0-7.
    As an afterthought, was Payton interviewed? I don’t remember.

  • Pack4life

    Larry I dont see any 4-12 or 6-10 in that any where.

  • Oddball

    I think the multiple position assignments makes sense for “emergency” situations if the player has some natural ability and is a workhorse. Spencer Havner worked out great as an Oh Shit! tight end replacement. Loved the writeup on him.

    Having a guard who can play center in a pinch makes good sense.
    Knowing that Woodson can play safety if disaster strikes isn’t a bad thing.
    If the wideouts can have some flexability, I think that can only help.

    I really do believe that if somebody is rock solid on the job and wants to do more, you find a way to fulfill that need that helps your team, but I think that’s something you do with proven veterans. The NFL is hard enough on the young guys trying to learn one position much less a couple. I’m thinking Havner is a special case, but we’ll see how he does going forward, hey?

  • I used to think there was a dif between 8-8, 7-9, 6-10, but others on this site have convinced me that they will settle for nothing less than “win now”.\
    Just saying sarcastically that improvement means nothing, gotta go for broke for the now.
    In any case, Pack4, who the hell really knows? There sure is a difference between 7-0 and 4-3, don’t care who its against either.
    What I can’t understand is how a fan can continually tear down their team and belittle what they do accomplish. I guess I’m just an all-in fan, win or lose, because of longevity if nothing else.

  • Hey, I’m blaming Al for my momentary funk, ie Nonstop to nowhere.

  • Oddball


    Just to clarify my thinking. I was happy as can be to watch us whup Detroit and the rest – those were fun afternoons. As I said before, there was also a certain satisfaction in watching us come back against the Queens.

    Once the games are over, the attention turns to how the team might improve and what we think our play says about our future, so rather than talk about how so and so had a great block on that last run and how great a catch Donald Driver made (!) I tend to think more about what went wrong. Character flaw I suppose, but that’s where my brain goes.

    When actually in a leadership role, you have to work the other path a lot. You need to accentuate the positive and celebrate when people excel otherwise you just end up being a morale killer. Here and now at 4-3 alongside the freaking Bears, I don’t see the need to gild the lily on this blog.

    If we can win the next two and welcome the niners to Lambeau sitting with a 6-3 record, I’ll certainly be singin’ a different tune.

  • Pack4life

    Oddball Here Here. Larry you can call it all in. I prefer to call it Pollyana. MM says if you arent getting better you are getting worse. I live a four hour drive from where the Super Bowl will be played in Training camp I thought that would be nice if the Pack went to the Super Bowl. I dont tear the team down, they tear themselves down. They dont need my help i.e. 31 sacks and counting

  • Yep, trying to suppress pessimism with optimism ain’t easy. You can only take it on balance and hope the good outweighs the bad.

  • Mike from Arizona

    To LarryTex point of moving OL around… MM did it last year and he is doing it this year. I would bet very few teams in the NFL practice this same methodology.

    Granted, our offensive is good because of Rodgers and our great receivers and TE’s. Can you imagine how better we can be in the passing game and most importantly the running game, with a sound OL.

    Our great screen passes, we have run in the past, seem to be less and less the past two season. So much for MM coaching abilities and TT staffing abilities.

  • roy jamison

    I’d like to applaud the Nobel Peace Prize winner for indirectly mentioning that “matchups” have made the Pack look good. Altho, the win over the Bears had some merit. Losing to Cincy only makes you a little bit better than average team. It’s tough to hide the elephants in the room who wear neon lights.

    And I’d like to applaud Al for his statement….whiny little bitches. That, too has much merit.

  • packer_bob

    Pointing out the reality of the situation is not “tearing the team down.”

    I said after the 2nd game that we can’t run the football, can’t protect the QB and can’t stop the run. (I admit now that we are a little better against the run than I thought after the Cincy game.) At any rate, that’s usually not a prescription for success in the NFL, especially when you add to that mix very inconsistent special teams and a perpetual penalty problem.

    I don’t see how recognizing the problems (as opposed to ignoring them or pretending they’re not a problem) equals bashing the team or not being a fan. If I weren’t as big of a fan as I am, I wouldn’t care.

    We are one and a half seasons into mediocrity at this point, and after the joys of the 2007 season that is hard for me to take. At the time I thought we had a team that might ascend to a dominant position for several years to come. At this point, it looks like we’re going the other way, so to me it’s only natural to question why.

  • roy jamison

    Do you get TNT when you mix TT with MM?

  • 25 Yrs Pack

    It’s 2009, all sports are win now.

  • Pack4life

    Roy you get MT Promises.

  • Well, if there is a bright side to good D its that teams have won it all w/ good D, mediocre (sp?) O. There are several examples. Also, the opposite is true that a good O hardly, if ever, gets you there with no D. Note that once Wolf had his QB he knew he had to build a D. Really, from ’93 on he built D and just tweeked O. REGGIE was like a magnet for FAs. I have to think we have one hell of a start on a fantastic D now.

  • Oddball

    We sure looked good against AP most of the day. Honestly, if we can stop the run effectively, most teams won’t be able to keep up with our offense.

  • jonnyfootballhero

    LarryTex, I commend you on your efforts to turn Lemons into Lemonade and for continually trying to serve it us. I really wish I shared your optimism. I just don’t and won’t until I the Packers continue to dominate quality teams. I too have lived through the 70s and 80s and dont ever wanna see those average to below average teams wearing the Green and Gold ever again. Other teams have put together perenial contenders year after year and thats what I want in the Packers. I don’t want the Pack to limp into the playoffs and hope they can peak. I want to know they’re going to the playoffs with a great chance of going to the Superbowl. If thats not the reality of this team, I want the necessary changes to make it so. I feel that I put a great emotional and financial (I buy a lot of Packer stuff) investment in this team, and I want to see the dividends now.

  • If only it were that easy…

  • Yeah, jfbh, unfortunately thats the only way to make Lemonade. I sincerely hope you recoup your investment.
    Having lived thru the 70s and 80s you know how hard it is, and you also know that if it weren’t for REGGIE ’95 and ’96 would not have happened; unfortunately he ain’t out there right now.
    I repeat, even with the Lemons, we’ll see where the Pack, Bearse, and Vikes, are in a couple of years. If you can’t wait that long thats too bad. We do know, however, where WAS, BUCs, and OAK, etc. are now.

  • jonnyfootballhero

    That’s a good point about Reggie…I’m not saying there is a Reggie out there now, but there were other high quality FAs (I’m not gonna name em) that could have made this team better in the past couple of years, but TT almost refuses to use FAs as a tool to make this team better. It could be done without mortgaging the teams future; they’re $20mil under for chrissakes!! That is what frustrates me to no end. Use the money and tools available to make this team better!

  • Larry, absolutely right about the defense. It may be hard to remember but we stopped the Vikes on 4th and 1 on their 4th possession and came within a hair of stopping their first TD on 4th down. Even with those Harvin returns we were 5 points behind late, driving second down and 3 at the Vikes 28 when no one blocked Allen for the sack. This was after 3 straight TD’s.
    I repeat, we have a much better run D than last year. If Taucher or someone can give #12 time this could be a good team.

  • Oddball

    I’m going back to O-line stuff because I really think that’s where this team can make progress.

    I think Ted Thompson needs help bringing in OLs. He’s had his shots at it, and it still looks like our best three linemen are aging Sherman-era players. Seriously – all this time, and we’re still looking for Clifton, Tauscher and Wells to save our bacon?

    Can we honestly say that any lineman he’s brought in was better than any of the five that were here when he arrived? Ok, I have hopes for Sitton and Lang, but the track record is not good. Whitiker, Coston, Moll, Spitz, Colledge, Barbre. Maybe I’m barkin’ up the wrong tree on this. It’s hard to believe that the man didn’t accidentally trip over at least one really good lineman in five freaking years. Maybe it really is more about the coaching.

    But I would think if that were the case that these men would catch on other places and do better. Whitiker and Coston appear to be out of football. Moll is a backup with the Ravens but was worth something in trade at least. Duke Preston is backing up in Dallas. None of these guys really have done much after leaving us. Kinda makes me think they weren’t really all that good to begin with.

  • 25 Yrs Pack

    Lets settle down now on the REGGIE 95 96, that defense was stacked, plus it was run by Butler, he called everything onthe field. I know your just pushing the argument that the teams MVP at the time was overrated, but lets stay in reality now…

  • 25 Yrs Pack

    You have to respect all Packers for what they did for our team, I don’t care if you hate them now, anger is one thing, but lets not be bitter forever and diminish the only Champions we’ve had in 50 years.

  • 25 Yrs Pack

    I’m not trying to be all pro bf with this, just saying reggie never dropped back into coverage, and I believe we had 2 really big boys clogging the middle.

  • Michael Legat

    I am less than thrilled with much of the current team’s performance, but it’s a long way to go before we start lumping the Green Bay Packers in with a poorly run franchise. Hell, we haven’t had back-to-back-losing seasons since 1991. Check this out – some surprised below:

    Last time team had back to back losing seasons:

    Bills – 4 year losing streak
    Bengals – 2 year losing streak
    Lions – 8 year losing streak
    Chiefs – 2 year losing streak
    Raiders – 6 year losing streak
    49ers – 6 year losing streak
    Rams – 2 year losing streak

    Falcons – 2 year losing streak
    Dolphins – 2 year losing streak

    Cardinals – 8 year losing streak
    Browns – 4 year losing streak
    Texans – 5 year losing streak

    Titans – 2 year losing streak

    Bears – 3 year losing streak
    Giants – 2 year losing streak
    Bucs – 2 year losing streak
    Redskins – 3 year losing streak

    Jaguars – 4 year losing streak

    Panthers – 3 year losing streak
    Cowboys – 3 year losing streak
    Vikings – 2 year losing streak

    Chargers – 2 year losing streak

    Saints – 6 year losing streak
    Eagles – 3 year losing streak
    Steelers – 2 year losing streak

    Ravens – 3 year losing streak
    Colts – 2 year losing streak

    Jets – 3 year losing streak

    Seahawks – 4 year losing streak

    Patriots – 5 year losing streak

    Packers – 2 year losing streak

    Broncos – 13 year losing streak

  • packer_bob

    That’s a good point, Michael. Compared with some of the teams you’ve named we certainly look good in comparison.

    I don’t think anyone’s trying to argue that we are poorly run and in danger of falling into a long term funk like the Lions, Raiders, etc.

    I know I’ve been spoiled by the long string of success we’ve had for most of my adult lifetime. (For the sake of this discussion, I am defining success as division titles, playoff trips, winning seasons, etc., not obviously SB wins.)

    Speaking for myself, it’s a combination of that and how close we were just 2 years ago, plus maybe the mirage of preseason that I bought in to, that makes it so frustrating. I have my problems with TT, but I wouldn’t say he’s an idiot or the worst GM in pro football by any means. It seems we are only maybe a few better picks or savvy free agent moves away from being truly upper echelon so I tend to focus on what we didn’t do to get over the hump as opposed to being thankful for the things that we have done right that keeps us from being one of the plethora of doormats that are in the NFL currently.

  • packer_bob

    Since any reasonable person would agree we’re not terrible, but probably not upper echelon yet either, a few questions spring to mind. (I’m not precluding the possibility that we can yet get to be an elite team this season, but for the purposes of the this conversation I’m stipulating that we are competitive but not one of the top 6 or 7 teams in the league, and I’m basing that on our record from last year and this one to this point.)

    It’s obvious that we have major problems on the O-line. When was the last time we spent a big pick or dipped into the free agent pool to address that?

    Our RB situation is poor, to the point where we are hoping Green can give us a boost. When was the last time we spent a big pick on a RB or looked at getting some free agent help?

    How many good players do we have that we are either going to lose to FA or the inevitable onslaught of age (Harris, Woodson, Kampman, Picket, Clifton, Tauscher, etc.) and what do we have when they are gone or unserviceable?

    TT dipped his toe into the FA pool with Woodson and Pickett, and scored big time. Why does he seem so reluctant to do it again? He changed his m.o. in the draft this past offseason, and while the jury is probably still out on Raji, Mathews looks like a helluva young baller at this point and I’m confident that Raji will prove out.

    He CAN do it, it just seems like he likes to play it safe to the point of parsimony and my fear is it will cost us a two to three year window where we maybe could have made some noise.

    McCarthy likes to say he can tolerate penalties born of aggressiveness, and this Packer fan could tolerate a few mistakes born of aggressiveness from the GM for the sake of the ones that worked out. Big rewards usually come with some measure of risk, and TT to my mind anyway, likes the safe bets which to me is akin to playing not to lose. After the 2007 season it was time to be looking to get over the top, imo, not looking to avoid any big mistakes.

  • Mike from Arizona

    Rams put Anthony Smith on waivers this week and TT tried to get him back. We lost out to Jacksonville. Are the two Safeties we signed (MG and DM) not working out? Aaron Rouse is starting for the Gaints this week.

  • Mike, Rouse could never impress MM even though we need help at safety and the Giants are desperate or he wouldn’t be starting. Rivers is certain to go after him. It’s going to be interesting to be able to see if he was a fall guy for the Bengal’s loss or a stiff.

  • p_b, I have never mentioned Woodson and Pickett simply because I just took it in stride that TT would move there(FAs) given availability. Faneca, Moss, Gonzales, and I’ve even heard some on here suggest Pace; Faneca probably is the one who could help the most given our WRs and TEs. So why doesn’t TT make more moves – probably because he is trying to fill backup spots with FA rather than putting out the big bucks for front liners. I’m sure he feels that our long term core has been served thru the draft.
    Insofar as the $$ are concerned, I would think that we have at least 20 of those recent draftees who will be comanding at least a 1M per raise when their rookie contracts are up within the next year or two. I think we have about 10 or 12 coming up next year. Thats strictly a guess on my part, but I don’t think I’d be too far off.
    It could well be that this OL comes together-wouldn’t that cut down half the posts?
    Again, we can all sit back and cherry pick FAs from the last few yrs we’d like to have but if (big IF) we start winning and end up 9-7 or better a lot of this goes away. Pease brother.

  • Damn, I meant peace!

  • oddball

    Damn. I like peas.

    I’m sorry, Larry. I just don’t see it. The failure of the last few years is pretty clear to me at OL and RB. Maybe it’s more about coaching than talent, but that doesn’t really change the status – only the plan.

    It would be great to think that the athletes are here and all we need is a better coach, but if that were the case, why would the answer be Clifton, Wells and Tauscher?

    I’m not asking for superstars across the board here – just two really good O-linemen in five years. I’m not screaming for us to use 1s and 2s on the picks either. A lot of our good lineman from the last 15 years came out of later rounds. Timmerman, Wells, Tauscher, Rivera, Flanagan and Dotson were all second day picks.

    I don’t care where they come from – hell, if we could fill the team with Drivers, Tauschers and Kampmans with Rodgers at the helm? Wouldn’t anybody love that team?

    I know you’re preaching patience, and you’re right. It would be a lot easier to be patient with the last two years’ OL picks if the three years before that had yielded some more success stories.

  • I do not dispute the fact that our weakness is OL and RB, Oddball, that is true.

  • oddball

    For all my bitching, I have to admit that I enjoyed the article on Sitton. If Lang and Sitton come through as starters, I like our chances going forward a lot better.

  • Devil’s Advocate…

    This was probably the game of the year. They’re either going to rise from the ashes together or stay in the wreckage for the rest of the year. I think this game showed there’s something wrong at the top (MM). This is the second week in a row that the Pack score a TD to put themselves in position and the follow it up w/a kick off that gets returned to their 10….. It’s like they fall asleep. Afraid maybe MM has turned into a gosh/shucks/gee whiz coach and all the players are hearing is blah, blah, blah. I have to put MM/TT on the clock after this one. Call’em as I see’em. MM may want to put the ST and OL coach on the clock also. Let the players know, so they have to look the coach in the eyes “all week” knowing they hold his job in their hands. Like to see them call a few more screens yet….. helps if they catch the ball though.